Any man may easily do harm, but not every man can do good to another. Plato
- What does it mean? - How does it relate to the chapter 1 just read? - What concrete example of this quote can I find in the novel? (Remember to track page number)
I believe this quote means that we can all be evil but have to make an extra effort to be good. It applies to the chapter 1 of Lord of the Flies because the boys were doing efforts to be good by organizing themselves, by voting a leader, by trying to see if they could get help... but they were still evil without knowing it because they weren't respecting Piggy, even if Piggy is one of the most clever boy of the group. This happens in all chapter 1, after Ralph calls the boys.
I agree with you sarah, because in certain situations, we all tend to follow the majority of the groups action, so if they all seem to gang up on some1 then the rest of the group will probably follow to avoid being rejected which is part of our evil side, but if more decide to rebel against that group which is the "extra effort to be good" then less evil will be done and people might hopefully start being good. So all the need is the effort.
This quote explains that evil requires limited effort since we are naturally prone to selfishness, whereas good demands time and sacrifice. It relates to Ralph's cruelty to Piggy. Ralph is voted a leader by means of his physical features rather than proven wise decision making qualities, people accept him quickly. As a result he makes no effort to be nice, even calling Piggy by the one name that he despises. On page 21, the boy expresses his pain, even momentarily gaining Ralph's sympathy."I said I didn't care as long as they didn't call me Piggy; an' I said not to tell and then you went an' said straight out-" This contrasts Piggy's attempts at being polite and organised by learning all the boys' names since he seems to have lived a sheltered life. This character tries to be good while the latter is unfazed by his environment and others' feelings.
Piggy seems to be naturally good, because even when the other boys were mean to him he remained polite and calm. He seems to be the only "truly good" boy.
Ralph is not always cruel to Piggy... just after your quote, it says: "Ralph, looking with more understanding at Piggy, saw that he was hurt and crushed. He hovered between the two courses of apology or further insult. "Better Piggy than Fatty" he said at last, with the directness of genuine leadership" Ralph feels bad for hurting Piggy's feelings. A reason he might always seem so cruel might be that he has to live up to the leadership that was thrust upon him and to do so, he has to make decisions for the best of everyone, even if they are not always fair. (rejecting Piggy from their adventure group because he would be better taking names)
It's true to an extent that the kids chose Ralph as a leader for his looks but it also mentions in the book that it has something to do with the conch shell. I think it's starting to become a symbol for power because it is what brought them all together. Maybe the shell will pass through different hands in the story (like power going from one to another)?.
I also thought that the conch shell would later become an important symbol. Still not knowing who or what the Lord of the Flies is, I suspect that maybe this shell is what gives this Lord the power.
Ironic that it was Piggy that had the idea to blow into the shell to summon the others, yet Ralph takes the credit and is named leader for his initiative. Had it not been for Piggy's asthma and fear, he could have blown in the shell himself. In which case, would they have still voted Ralph as leader?
As for Ralph's cruelty, his pride gets the best of him and this is reflected in his apology. "Better Piggy than Fatty" doesn't do much to make Piggy feel better, he's almost adding insult to injury. Also, it is possible to be a proper leader without being mean, granted, they are children. When selecting his companions for the exploration group, you can tell that Piggy is regardless hurt to not be accepted, particularly when Jack blatantly says "We don't want you." (p.21) I believe that the author usually makes allusion to his glasses when Piggy is feeling negative emotions (notably hurt, embarrassment and anger), and after Jack says this, "Piggy's glasses flashed" (p.21).
I somewhat agree with you Sara and Marc. Yes I think that Ralph is very cruel to Piggy. However when he doesn't further his insults this shows a little sympathy but Ralph doesn't go the extra mile to redeem himself from his cruel actions. This supports the quote saying that Ralph is mean and he realizes this in that quote but doesn't make an effort to apologize and try to do good to Piggy.
I like what you say about the way Piggy helped Ralph Sarah. If I may, I would like to add that to this point, Piggy is Ralph's only connection to the other boys. Piggy gives Ralph the information that he has gotten from the people, and he (as you said) gave him the materials and knowledge to become the chief. Maybe Ralph's rejection of Piggy will come back at him.
I found it interesting what you said about the conch shell being passed on depending on who has power, Alexane. That hadn't occurred to me but now I can see that if the shell is what united the boys then they would find it important, and therefore would find it to be a symbol of power. So it could be passed around throughout the novel depending on which boy has the most power, like you said!
I'm agreeing with the fact that the conch shell being a sign of power, but I see it more as the hidden power, the kid's voted Jack as their leader, yet still listen to Ralph precisely because has the conch, this may be a foreshadowing of future conflicts with a struggle of power between Ralph and Jack. All that remains is for Jack to realize he hasn't the full support of his peers until he has the conch to spark a conflict.
Sarah, I can’t agree more with the fact that piggy gave the idea to Ralph and even told him how to do blow in the shell. And I would say no to your question as the shell may represent power and he who holds it is the leader.
Spot on Sarah, however I strongly believe that Ralph and Piggy's relationship shall grow into one of mutual trust and respect, and that Ralph's cruelty towards Piggy is inadvertent. I think we can all agree that the boys must be all be jaded following the uncommon chain of events.
I think this quote means that it's easy for anyone to do harm without really thinking about it or noticing it whereas doing good takes more effort and also a better attention and comprehension of others. It relates to chapter 1 because the kids, especially Ralph, keep being harmful towards Piggy without realizing or caring of the consequences that it has on him. This is seen when without hesitation, Ralph reveals to everyone Piggy's secret and they all start laughing at it (end of page 17).
This quote means that harming others is easy to do, it is for your own benefit and does not require much effort whereas being good to others is for the benefit of others and requires personal sacrifice because one does not necessarily benefit from helping others. This is demonstrated in Chapter 1 after Simon faints from heat exhaustion. Jack replies: "Let him alone. ... He's always throwing a faint." (p.16) For Jack, it is easier to leave Simon alone without help, thus causing him harm, than taking his own valuable time to help him. Evil, selfish actions are easier to do than helping others. (Though they are definitively not the best thing to do.)
Interesting point about Jack. Based off the activity we did in class, I think he's gong to represent the tyrant. Piggy the democratic leader, and Ralph will be the uncaring leader.
I was actually thinking of the activity too and judging by the way Jack acts with the choir, I thought he could be the dictator. I think that Ralph was acting a little meaner though (especially with Piggy) so maybe he'd be the tyrant?
Could Simon become a leader? (He is considered one of the 4 key characters in the novel and we did study 4 types of leaders in class). He might end up as the anarchist? (a leader who faints easily would probably bring chaos and anarchy). He could even invent his own religion and govern by theocracy. ._.
Possibly there will be some big event that will break Simon out of his shell. I think after some event the 'lost boys' might prefer Simon because of his leadership skills and ruthlessness and will bring chaos to the group. Good point Marc!
I agree with you Marc. As the book was written right after the second world war, we could look at every mentionned character as a type of ruling and see how these interract. Jack is, obviously a dictator, Ralph is a democracy because he shows that he needs help after he is elected. Thanks to you Marc, we can say Simon could make a good anarchist. But what about Piggy? would he really be a democracy? Since democracy is already represented by Ralph, could we say Piggy is a communist? He is the one who cares about the people and sees them as equal beings. He also shows that he is opposed to a democracy because, at first, he doesn't vote for Ralph of Jack. He keeps his hand down, until peer pressure gets to him.
I agree Marc, this is another example of egocentric leaders and Ralph and Jack have no respect for others and see no need in helping others. As for what Simon said I think that Piggy is the democracy, Ralph would be the tyrant and Jack would be the dictator. As for the vote, I think Piggy is reluctant because he is afraid of both of the suggested leaders.
I agree with what you said about the different leadership styles, Leslie. I think that Piggy would be the democracy, because he seems fair and always taking into consideration everyone before making a decision, which is typical of a democracy. However I think that Ralph would be the anarchist, because he seems to be indifferent to the events happening and is letting Jack take most of the important decisions and have the final say. Therefore, Jack would be more of a tyrant because we can see that he puts people down a lot (Piggy, Simon..)
I agree with you Simon, I think that piggy is more of good communist leader than a democrat as it is not he who relies on the vote. He thinks everyone should be equal, that they should all make decision together and not just depend on one leader who can do what he wants.
Good point Marc. I believe a quote that explains perfectly the evil that lies in all humans is by Mark Twain, when he said "Everyone is a moon, and has a dark side which he never shows to anybody."
This quote explains that it is very easy for animal/human beings to do bad to each other because of our selfish and ignorant ways. Why it is difficult for us to be genuinely good to one another. In chapter 1 we see that Jack is obviously selfish and arrogant; he takes it upon himself to be the leader of the group, being obviously the best for the job (probably being older and wiser) ("I ought to be chief because I'm chapter chorister and head boy. I can sing C sharp." p.18), calls Piggy, Fatty when he wants him to stop speaking ("You're talking too much, shut up Fatty!" p.17), and calls on Simon who complains to him ("He's always throwing a faint." p.16) probably embarrassing him. These demonstrate the cruelty he holds. Wanting to seem tough in another situation, he tries to find the courage to kill the piglet found in the forest but stops himself with the knife over his head when he sees the the little pig struggling and defenseless. He doesn't stop himself for his own personal gain (since he wants to seem powerful) but realizes that he can't kill the helpless creature in good conscience. Being good to the pig. (p.28) Which means that Jack can act both well and wrongly.
I didn't pick up on that, also I think that maybe Ralph tries to mean towards piggy early on in the story so he can try to show his dominance infront of all the other kids, and strike as being the most powerful on the island right off the bat.
This quote explains that for humans it requires less effort to be evil than to do good especially when there is no personal benefit from being nice to someone. Ralph sees Piggy as his inferior and has absolutely no respect for him. Often we see Ralph, as a superior and sees no need in being nice to him for it is useless work. In the novel, Piggy tries really hard to be accepted by Ralph and he rejects him. Ralph is mean to everyone and although Piggy tries to get acquainted with him but Ralph makes no effort in return. In the beginning, Piggy tries to get food for the two boys and while he is doing so Ralph runs off to get ride of him. Page 4 "Ralph disentangled himself cautiously and stole away through the branches. In a few seconds the fat boy's grunts were behind him and he was hurrying towards the screen that still lay between and the lagoon.
I totally agree with the fact that Ralph has absolutely no respect for Piggy. But I don't think that Ralph is mean to everyone. He just chooses who he wants to be friends with and who he wants to harm. For example, he chose to be nice to Jack when they made the agreement that he was going to be chief and Jack was going to be in charge of the choir.
I'm not sure about the part of Ralph being evil but I agree with both of you that he does not respect Piggy. I think that Ralph is more the type of person that respects someone if he or she has something to offer him. Piggy does not really offer nothing to him on the contrary Jack is the leader of th choir so if he makes Jack happy the rest of the choir will like him back.
I think this quote meant to make the reader think of the reasons why a person finds it easy to do harm, while doing “good” is difficult. Good and bad involve two or more individuals. The difference between good and bad is that "good" involves the interest of the two (or more) subjects, while "bad" normally involves only the interest of one of the individuals. This makes it much easier to do bad than to do “good”. Therefore, it isn't necessarily human nature to do “bad”, it only happens people do “bad” because most of their interest is in themselves. But this isn't necessarily selfishness for the first thing a human normally does after taking a decision is not tell themselves "Oh, this is good, Piggy will hate me after this" it tends to look a little more like "Oh, this is good for me". And the train of thought stops there. In any way, what would we be if the first of us had no interest? Plus, we did have to ignore other's interest at some point. The quote relates to the chapter we just read because the chapter shows that there is much more “bad” in this world than there is good. If the world was scaled to the size of an Island, perhaps only one of the probable leaders would be a good leader (Piggy). As mentioned earlier in one of my comments, I think William Golding’s goal with this book will be to show what happens between different leaders of this world, and how they react to situations. A good example for this quote would be the one when Piggy wants to join the expedition Jack, Ralph and Simon are about to make. The one with the most interest in himself (Jack) flatly says “We don’t want you. Three’s enough”, while Ralph, who cares a bit about Piggy’s interest, says “You’re no good on a job like this”. This all happens on page 21.
I agree with you, I think each of the main characters represent a sort of style of leadership seen beforehand in the real world, hence why I believe this chapter depicts an accurate effigy of history.
Yes i do agree with the different characters representing different types of leadership. I also think that Piggy might not be the best choice as a leader because even though he is good, respectful, calm and tries to be polite, he doesn't stand up for himself when he gets called Piggy, therefore, he doesn't have all the leadership skills to be a good leader.
That is an interesting observation (every kid being a type of leader), but I'm not so sure how this will help in the understanding of the book now because I find it not to be clear at this point of the story. I feel that we should read a couple more chapters to really have a larger thought of ideas of each character. However it is a good point to bring up.
I think that this quote represents that humans are more likely to do evil things because they require less effort. Though we are sometimes presented with a choice to do either a good thing or a bad thing, we often choose what is easier because we are born with a selfish nature. An example of this would be when Jack, Ralph and Simon go to search the island, and Piggy wants to come. However, Jack treats Piggy as his inferior and automatically tells him to stay behind. Here we can see that Jack's first instinct is to forbid Piggy to come with them, because doing the right thing and allowing him to come would require them to watch Piggy and make sure he is alright, as he seems somewhat inept in their new environment.
Agreed with your statement about the nature of humans is to take the easy way out of everything, which is to be negative, because being positive requires more efforts and is not always easy to do. I also stated the same thing about the boys trying to make each other feel superior to one another, which brings out evil in a person, maybe the cause of this could be another human instinct that makes us always wanna be number one at something?
This quote demonstrates true primitive animal behavior, I believe when one has the option to do bad and benefit one self rather than going out of his/her way to do good, it is likely that, one will chose. Like in the book when Piggy confronts Ralph about telling the pack of children that his name is Piggy, Ralph has the chance to apologize and do good to the obviously distraught child. Instead, he neglects his sense of right and wrong and Ralph's apology digresses his apology to "Better Piggy than Fatty!"
I think in contrast to your idea, that maybe the kids are trying to be the leist barbaric as possible, doing their best to try and make things work, but they get caught up being mean to piggy anyway.
I think that the quote depicts the fact that it is easier to do harm than it is to do good. In this first chapter, the characters try to do good, by creating a new little system to work to keep a little community going smoothly, but they also do a lot of harm towards piggy without even trying or maybe even meaning too. On p.21 jack bluntly tells piggy: "We don't want you, threes enough" or also on p.11 Ralph tells piggy to :"shut up". So coming back to the main quote, I think is has to do with this first chapter because the kids do their best to do good deeds, but at the same time they are causing harm towards piggy.
I believe that this quote means that humans are born with the temptations to commit evil and do harm and it is harder for people to do good for another person. One is more attracted to do bad because it easier to do without any effort. On the other hand, to do good would be putting a lot of effort to make it happen. This is relatable in chapter one when Piggy wants to join the three boys in their adventure on the island and instead of being nice and accepting him, they immediately decline his demand. Also, this is seen when Piggy tells Ralph not to call him Piggy in front of everyone else and when Ralph does, Piggy confronts him and he has the chance to excuse himself but instead he wants to look macho so he says “Better Piggy than fatty”.
The quote explains that any man can harm and do evil deeds as it is within our own human nature. We as humans are prone to the evil side, which is why it is harder to help someone in need as acting in such way would be against our own selfishness. In the first chapter of Lord of the Flies, the same theory can be applied to Ralph and Jack as both are given powers and use it to their advantages while neglecting others. Ralph and Jack did not want piggy to be present on the expedition as they know that with his asthma conditions he might cause them the trouble of helping him out. This means that by bringing him they might be forced to do some good actions which are something they probably want to avoid as it goes against their own evil human nature. P.21 “You’re no good on a job like this.”
I believe that this quote by Plato means that anyone is capable of evil things easily, but its harder to do something for another person without it being for selfish reasons or that you get some sort of benefit out of it. In the first chapter of Lord of the Flies, this quote seems to relate to Piggy and Ralph's actions towards each other in attempt to make themselves superior of the other. For example, when Piggy explains how his asthma effects his swimming abilities, right after he points out his own flaw, in attempt to cover it up he observes Ralph's swimming and says '' you can't half swim well'' (page 8) This is an unnecessary negative comment towards Ralph in attempt to sink him down even lower than his level, because Ralph does not even have an excuse for not being able to swim well. This goes to show how easy rude unnecessary comments can just slip out without realizing it kind of like a defense mechanism, when a good comment is sometimes harder to think of and say to a person.
To my perspective, the quote is stating that everyone has the power over their own evil like decisions, as much as they have the power to make any other choices for the good of themselves. The human being itself is very selfish and in the end, will do anything to keep its own self breathing. As much as we would like to give our life away for someone we love, our instincts and reflexes will do everything possible to make sure you stay alive. (Kind of like if you were trapped underwater, drowning, and running out of oxygen quickly, and all that was close by to pull yourself up was someone else, as much as the other dosent deserve to drown as much as you do, your instant body reflexe, to breath, will be to grasp that person in order to rise over the water. Keep this example in mind as i explain) This relates to the chapter one just read through the main characters introduced so far. Ralph, Jack and Piggy have all different perspectives and personality's related to their back story. Piggy being a little more litteral then Ralph and Ralph being imaginative. Ralph portrays over confidence compared to the others to be seemingly superior to them, "Making fun of Piggy's name on p.6, Continuously telling Piggy to shut up p.11, Breaking Piggy's trust by exposing his ridiculed name p.17" Ralph being selfishly evil is using Piggy as his life raft and sinking him instead. Piggy, suffering from asthma, is showing some kind of weakness that he will most likely have to deal with through the novel. Piggy is still some what defensive of himself, " Criticizing Ralph's swimming after Ralph insults Piggy on p.8 " This can maybe foreshadow a character development who may change Ralph in the process. (Characters roles switch or equalizes) This sums up that Ralph, being the one who dosent do good to another to uplift himself, may change in the process Piggy, turning him into someone who can easily do harm himself, in order to defend himself. Basically the cycle of selfishness.
Agreed with your idea of humans to be extremely selfish by human nature, but when you say ''As much as we would like to give our life away for someone we love, our instincts and reflexes will do everything possible to make sure you stay alive.'' i'd have to disagree because in many cases, human nature could also play for us to be unselfish and put our loved ones first. For example, A mother and her children, the majority of moms would in fact put their child first in a situation of such nature, in order for their children to live instead of them. This is an example of the motherly instinct, which contradicts with the selfish instinct. Other than that, totally agree with what you stated about the boys being selfish and try to seem superior to their others.
Doing harm is so easy because it doesn't require as much thought and effort as doing well others. Also, by putting someone down, confidence is easier to have and a feeling of superiority is also achieved. In Chapter 1, the theme of power is very important because it will probably determine everyone’s role on the island for the rest of the time. To demonstrate this sense of power, Ralph puts down Piggy by bullying him such as calling him rude names and making fun of him. He also ends up getting voted as chief. This might cause chaos in the future due to his harmful ways, so I think that the outcome of this situation is going to be bad. From the beginning, Ralph has been bullying Piggy. “I don’t care what they call me, so long as they don’t call me what they used to call me at school.” P.8 Afterwards Ralph only ever decides to call him Piggy. This is the beginning of a painful road for Piggy due to Ralph’s ignorance and lack of kindness.
To me, this quote is mostly adressed to the boys and piggy in a way that piggy is the one that can do good to another and even many other by doing his best by trying to help them with his ideas and advices that are later either ignored or stolen, just like the part when he thought of the idea of blowing in the shell, hoping to attract the other boys to them but couldn't because of his asthma so he had to ask Ralph for it, and unfortunately he took advantange of Piggy's kindness and claimed being the one who had the idea. But another part of the novel just at the beginning, also well illustrated this quote, the part when Piggy introduces himself but is made fun of by Ralph and of course the other boys later in the chapter. "what's your name?' (p.3) 'They used to call me Piggy'.(p.6) This quote shows the innocence of piggy, how he thought he was being nice by asking Ralphs name and later tells his nickname but is sadly made fun of, this also shows how Piggy is being nice by asking for his name even thought Ralph doesnt seem intrested in him and doesnt even bother asking back, and later tells him the ambarrassing name that his school mates have given him. But Ralph for me might not mean so much harm by making fun of him but still, he did make fun of him which shows how he does easily harm Piggy by not always meaning it. To conclude, the boys including Ralph are the ones that can do harm compared to Piggy who is one of the few boys who can do good.
I agree on what you say Mirenda, but Ralph also shows a bit of kindness when he realises that Piggy is sad after he calls him by his unfortunate nickname. Ralph looking with more understanding at Piggy, saw that he was hurt and crushed. "Better Piggy than Fatty" he said at last. (p.21) This shows that Ralph is not completly evil and has a good spot as well. However I feel that Jack will not be as nice as Ralph and will want to take control as leader.
Plato hints that humans can easily hurt one another by giving into to their animal instinct to 'kill or be killed', but it takes an enlightened man to know that doing good has better social outcomes than doing bad. The man who uses his intelligence and reason knows that peace is better than violence, co-operation is better than competition and civilized collective order is better than anarchy. Choosing to do good is really in one's own self-interest and creates more good, while harm results in retaliation. Not every man understands the power of good, and the positive effect of goodwill toward men. I think that the quote is very relevant, because the fundamental theme of the book is the stark contrast between civilization and savagery. Descending into cruel barbarity is a choice we humans make, as is preferring to see the best in people, giving the benefit of the doubt and striving to build an orderly and decent society together for the common good, rather than just destroying for selfish advantage. The triumph of Enlightened Man over Dark Ages Man is a powerful theme as it has been throughout human history. A concrete example of this quote can be found on page 11, when Ralph shrieks with laughter upon learning what the kids use to call Piggy, bringing great shame to Piggy.
I believe this quote means that we can all be evil but have to make an extra effort to be good. It applies to the chapter 1 of Lord of the Flies because the boys were doing efforts to be good by organizing themselves, by voting a leader, by trying to see if they could get help... but they were still evil without knowing it because they weren't respecting Piggy, even if Piggy is one of the most clever boy of the group. This happens in all chapter 1, after Ralph calls the boys.
RépondreEffacerI agree with you sarah, because in certain situations, we all tend to follow the majority of the groups action, so if they all seem to gang up on some1 then the rest of the group will probably follow to avoid being rejected which is part of our evil side, but if more decide to rebel against that group which is the "extra effort to be good" then less evil will be done and people might hopefully start being good. So all the need is the effort.
EffacerThis quote explains that evil requires limited effort since we are naturally prone to selfishness, whereas good demands time and sacrifice. It relates to Ralph's cruelty to Piggy. Ralph is voted a leader by means of his physical features rather than proven wise decision making qualities, people accept him quickly. As a result he makes no effort to be nice, even calling Piggy by the one name that he despises. On page 21, the boy expresses his pain, even momentarily gaining Ralph's sympathy."I said I didn't care as long as they didn't call me Piggy; an' I said not to tell and then you went an' said straight out-" This contrasts Piggy's attempts at being polite and organised by learning all the boys' names since he seems to have lived a sheltered life. This character tries to be good while the latter is unfazed by his environment and others' feelings.
RépondreEffacerPiggy seems to be naturally good, because even when the other boys were mean to him he remained polite and calm. He seems to be the only "truly good" boy.
EffacerRalph is not always cruel to Piggy... just after your quote, it says: "Ralph, looking with more understanding at Piggy, saw that he was hurt and crushed. He hovered between the two courses of apology or further insult. "Better Piggy than Fatty" he said at last, with the directness of genuine leadership" Ralph feels bad for hurting Piggy's feelings. A reason he might always seem so cruel might be that he has to live up to the leadership that was thrust upon him and to do so, he has to make decisions for the best of everyone, even if they are not always fair. (rejecting Piggy from their adventure group because he would be better taking names)
EffacerIt's true to an extent that the kids chose Ralph as a leader for his looks but it also mentions in the book that it has something to do with the conch shell. I think it's starting to become a symbol for power because it is what brought them all together. Maybe the shell will pass through different hands in the story (like power going from one to another)?.
EffacerI also thought that the conch shell would later become an important symbol. Still not knowing who or what the Lord of the Flies is, I suspect that maybe this shell is what gives this Lord the power.
EffacerIronic that it was Piggy that had the idea to blow into the shell to summon the others, yet Ralph takes the credit and is named leader for his initiative. Had it not been for Piggy's asthma and fear, he could have blown in the shell himself. In which case, would they have still voted Ralph as leader?
EffacerAs for Ralph's cruelty, his pride gets the best of him and this is reflected in his apology. "Better Piggy than Fatty" doesn't do much to make Piggy feel better, he's almost adding insult to injury. Also, it is possible to be a proper leader without being mean, granted, they are children.
EffacerWhen selecting his companions for the exploration group, you can tell that Piggy is regardless hurt to not be accepted, particularly when Jack blatantly says "We don't want you." (p.21) I believe that the author usually makes allusion to his glasses when Piggy is feeling negative emotions (notably hurt, embarrassment and anger), and after Jack says this, "Piggy's glasses flashed" (p.21).
I somewhat agree with you Sara and Marc. Yes I think that Ralph is very cruel to Piggy. However when he doesn't further his insults this shows a little sympathy but Ralph doesn't go the extra mile to redeem himself from his cruel actions. This supports the quote saying that Ralph is mean and he realizes this in that quote but doesn't make an effort to apologize and try to do good to Piggy.
EffacerI like what you say about the way Piggy helped Ralph Sarah. If I may, I would like to add that to this point, Piggy is Ralph's only connection to the other boys. Piggy gives Ralph the information that he has gotten from the people, and he (as you said) gave him the materials and knowledge to become the chief. Maybe Ralph's rejection of Piggy will come back at him.
EffacerI found it interesting what you said about the conch shell being passed on depending on who has power, Alexane. That hadn't occurred to me but now I can see that if the shell is what united the boys then they would find it important, and therefore would find it to be a symbol of power. So it could be passed around throughout the novel depending on which boy has the most power, like you said!
EffacerI'm agreeing with the fact that the conch shell being a sign of power, but I see it more as the hidden power, the kid's voted Jack as their leader, yet still listen to Ralph precisely because has the conch, this may be a foreshadowing of future conflicts with a struggle of power between Ralph and Jack. All that remains is for Jack to realize he hasn't the full support of his peers until he has the conch to spark a conflict.
EffacerMackenzie, i don't know if I'm reading this right but Jack does not obtain the power, Ralph is voted as the leader.
EffacerSarah, I can’t agree more with the fact that piggy gave the idea to Ralph and even told him how to do blow in the shell. And I would say no to your question as the shell may represent power and he who holds it is the leader.
EffacerSpot on Sarah, however I strongly believe that Ralph and Piggy's relationship shall grow into one of mutual trust and respect, and that Ralph's cruelty towards Piggy is inadvertent. I think we can all agree that the boys must be all be jaded following the uncommon chain of events.
EffacerI think this quote means that it's easy for anyone to do harm without really thinking about it or noticing it whereas doing good takes more effort and also a better attention and comprehension of others. It relates to chapter 1 because the kids, especially Ralph, keep being harmful towards Piggy without realizing or caring of the consequences that it has on him. This is seen when without hesitation, Ralph reveals to everyone Piggy's secret and they all start laughing at it (end of page 17).
RépondreEffacerThis quote means that harming others is easy to do, it is for your own benefit and does not require much effort whereas being good to others is for the benefit of others and requires personal sacrifice because one does not necessarily benefit from helping others. This is demonstrated in Chapter 1 after Simon faints from heat exhaustion. Jack replies: "Let him alone. ... He's always throwing a faint." (p.16) For Jack, it is easier to leave Simon alone without help, thus causing him harm, than taking his own valuable time to help him. Evil, selfish actions are easier to do than helping others. (Though they are definitively not the best thing to do.)
RépondreEffacerYou're right, I hadn't picked on when Jack told that. It's really mean of him, and shows again how evil is easy and everywhere.
EffacerInteresting point about Jack. Based off the activity we did in class, I think he's gong to represent the tyrant. Piggy the democratic leader, and Ralph will be the uncaring leader.
EffacerI was actually thinking of the activity too and judging by the way Jack acts with the choir, I thought he could be the dictator. I think that Ralph was acting a little meaner though (especially with Piggy) so maybe he'd be the tyrant?
EffacerCould Simon become a leader? (He is considered one of the 4 key characters in the novel and we did study 4 types of leaders in class). He might end up as the anarchist? (a leader who faints easily would probably bring chaos and anarchy). He could even invent his own religion and govern by theocracy. ._.
EffacerPossibly there will be some big event that will break Simon out of his shell. I think after some event the 'lost boys' might prefer Simon because of his leadership skills and ruthlessness and will bring chaos to the group. Good point Marc!
EffacerI agree with you Marc. As the book was written right after the second world war, we could look at every mentionned character as a type of ruling and see how these interract. Jack is, obviously a dictator, Ralph is a democracy because he shows that he needs help after he is elected. Thanks to you Marc, we can say Simon could make a good anarchist. But what about Piggy? would he really be a democracy? Since democracy is already represented by Ralph, could we say Piggy is a communist? He is the one who cares about the people and sees them as equal beings. He also shows that he is opposed to a democracy because, at first, he doesn't vote for Ralph of Jack. He keeps his hand down, until peer pressure gets to him.
EffacerI agree Marc, this is another example of egocentric leaders and Ralph and Jack have no respect for others and see no need in helping others. As for what Simon said I think that Piggy is the democracy, Ralph would be the tyrant and Jack would be the dictator. As for the vote, I think Piggy is reluctant because he is afraid of both of the suggested leaders.
EffacerI agree with what you said about the different leadership styles, Leslie. I think that Piggy would be the democracy, because he seems fair and always taking into consideration everyone before making a decision, which is typical of a democracy. However I think that Ralph would be the anarchist, because he seems to be indifferent to the events happening and is letting Jack take most of the important decisions and have the final say. Therefore, Jack would be more of a tyrant because we can see that he puts people down a lot (Piggy, Simon..)
EffacerI agree with you Simon, I think that piggy is more of good communist leader than a democrat as it is not he who relies on the vote. He thinks everyone should be equal, that they should all make decision together and not just depend on one leader who can do what he wants.
EffacerGood point Marc. I believe a quote that explains perfectly the evil that lies in all humans is by Mark Twain, when he said "Everyone is a moon, and has a dark side which he never shows to anybody."
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RépondreEffacerThis quote explains that it is very easy for animal/human beings to do bad to each other because of our selfish and ignorant ways. Why it is difficult for us to be genuinely good to one another. In chapter 1 we see that Jack is obviously selfish and arrogant; he takes it upon himself to be the leader of the group, being obviously the best for the job (probably being older and wiser) ("I ought to be chief because I'm chapter chorister and head boy. I can sing C sharp." p.18), calls Piggy, Fatty when he wants him to stop speaking ("You're talking too much, shut up Fatty!" p.17), and calls on Simon who complains to him ("He's always throwing a faint." p.16) probably embarrassing him. These demonstrate the cruelty he holds. Wanting to seem tough in another situation, he tries to find the courage to kill the piglet found in the forest but stops himself with the knife over his head when he sees the the little pig struggling and defenseless. He doesn't stop himself for his own personal gain (since he wants to seem powerful) but realizes that he can't kill the helpless creature in good conscience. Being good to the pig. (p.28) Which means that Jack can act both well and wrongly.
RépondreEffacerI didn't pick up on that, also I think that maybe Ralph tries to mean towards piggy early on in the story so he can try to show his dominance infront of all the other kids, and strike as being the most powerful on the island right off the bat.
EffacerThis quote explains that for humans it requires less effort to be evil than to do good especially when there is no personal benefit from being nice to someone. Ralph sees Piggy as his inferior and has absolutely no respect for him. Often we see Ralph, as a superior and sees no need in being nice to him for it is useless work. In the novel, Piggy tries really hard to be accepted by Ralph and he rejects him. Ralph is mean to everyone and although Piggy tries to get acquainted with him but Ralph makes no effort in return. In the beginning, Piggy tries to get food for the two boys and while he is doing so Ralph runs off to get ride of him. Page 4 "Ralph disentangled himself cautiously and stole away through the branches. In a few seconds the fat boy's grunts were behind him and he was hurrying towards the screen that still lay between and the lagoon.
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EffacerI totally agree with the fact that Ralph has absolutely no respect for Piggy. But I don't think that Ralph is mean to everyone. He just chooses who he wants to be friends with and who he wants to harm. For example, he chose to be nice to Jack when they made the agreement that he was going to be chief and Jack was going to be in charge of the choir.
EffacerI'm not sure about the part of Ralph being evil but I agree with both of you that he does not respect Piggy. I think that Ralph is more the type of person that respects someone if he or she has something to offer him. Piggy does not really offer nothing to him on the contrary Jack is the leader of th choir so if he makes Jack happy the rest of the choir will like him back.
EffacerI think this quote meant to make the reader think of the reasons why a person finds it easy to do harm, while doing “good” is difficult. Good and bad involve two or more individuals. The difference between good and bad is that "good" involves the interest of the two (or more) subjects, while "bad" normally involves only the interest of one of the individuals. This makes it much easier to do bad than to do “good”. Therefore, it isn't necessarily human nature to do “bad”, it only happens people do “bad” because most of their interest is in themselves. But this isn't necessarily selfishness for the first thing a human normally does after taking a decision is not tell themselves "Oh, this is good, Piggy will hate me after this" it tends to look a little more like "Oh, this is good for me". And the train of thought stops there. In any way, what would we be if the first of us had no interest? Plus, we did have to ignore other's interest at some point. The quote relates to the chapter we just read because the chapter shows that there is much more “bad” in this world than there is good. If the world was scaled to the size of an Island, perhaps only one of the probable leaders would be a good leader (Piggy). As mentioned earlier in one of my comments, I think William Golding’s goal with this book will be to show what happens between different leaders of this world, and how they react to situations. A good example for this quote would be the one when Piggy wants to join the expedition Jack, Ralph and Simon are about to make. The one with the most interest in himself (Jack) flatly says “We don’t want you. Three’s enough”, while Ralph, who cares a bit about Piggy’s interest, says “You’re no good on a job like this”. This all happens on page 21.
RépondreEffacerI agree with you, I think each of the main characters represent a sort of style of leadership seen beforehand in the real world, hence why I believe this chapter depicts an accurate effigy of history.
EffacerYes i do agree with the different characters representing different types of leadership. I also think that Piggy might not be the best choice as a leader because even though he is good, respectful, calm and tries to be polite, he doesn't stand up for himself when he gets called Piggy, therefore, he doesn't have all the leadership skills to be a good leader.
EffacerThat is an interesting observation (every kid being a type of leader), but I'm not so sure how this will help in the understanding of the book now because I find it not to be clear at this point of the story. I feel that we should read a couple more chapters to really have a larger thought of ideas of each character. However it is a good point to bring up.
EffacerI think that this quote represents that humans are more likely to do evil things because they require less effort. Though we are sometimes presented with a choice to do either a good thing or a bad thing, we often choose what is easier because we are born with a selfish nature. An example of this would be when Jack, Ralph and Simon go to search the island, and Piggy wants to come. However, Jack treats Piggy as his inferior and automatically tells him to stay behind. Here we can see that Jack's first instinct is to forbid Piggy to come with them, because doing the right thing and allowing him to come would require them to watch Piggy and make sure he is alright, as he seems somewhat inept in their new environment.
RépondreEffacerAgreed with your statement about the nature of humans is to take the easy way out of everything, which is to be negative, because being positive requires more efforts and is not always easy to do. I also stated the same thing about the boys trying to make each other feel superior to one another, which brings out evil in a person, maybe the cause of this could be another human instinct that makes us always wanna be number one at something?
EffacerThis quote demonstrates true primitive animal behavior, I believe when one has the option to do bad and benefit one self rather than going out of his/her way to do good, it is likely that, one will chose. Like in the book when Piggy confronts Ralph about telling the pack of children that his name is Piggy, Ralph has the chance to apologize and do good to the obviously distraught child. Instead, he neglects his sense of right and wrong and Ralph's apology digresses his apology to "Better Piggy than Fatty!"
RépondreEffacerI think in contrast to your idea, that maybe the kids are trying to be the leist barbaric as possible, doing their best to try and make things work, but they get caught up being mean to piggy anyway.
EffacerI think that the quote depicts the fact that it is easier to do harm than it is to do good. In this first chapter, the characters try to do good, by creating a new little system to work to keep a little community going smoothly, but they also do a lot of harm towards piggy without even trying or maybe even meaning too. On p.21 jack bluntly tells piggy: "We don't want you, threes enough" or also on p.11 Ralph tells piggy to :"shut up". So coming back to the main quote, I think is has to do with this first chapter because the kids do their best to do good deeds, but at the same time they are causing harm towards piggy.
RépondreEffacerI believe that this quote means that humans are born with the temptations to commit evil and do harm and it is harder for people to do good for another person. One is more attracted to do bad because it easier to do without any effort. On the other hand, to do good would be putting a lot of effort to make it happen. This is relatable in chapter one when Piggy wants to join the three boys in their adventure on the island and instead of being nice and accepting him, they immediately decline his demand. Also, this is seen when Piggy tells Ralph not to call him Piggy in front of everyone else and when Ralph does, Piggy confronts him and he has the chance to excuse himself but instead he wants to look macho so he says “Better Piggy than fatty”.
RépondreEffacerThe quote explains that any man can harm and do evil deeds as it is within our own human nature. We as humans are prone to the evil side, which is why it is harder to help someone in need as acting in such way would be against our own selfishness. In the first chapter of Lord of the Flies, the same theory can be applied to Ralph and Jack as both are given powers and use it to their advantages while neglecting others. Ralph and Jack did not want piggy to be present on the expedition as they know that with his asthma conditions he might cause them the trouble of helping him out. This means that by bringing him they might be forced to do some good actions which are something they probably want to avoid as it goes against their own evil human nature. P.21 “You’re no good on a job like this.”
RépondreEffacerI believe that this quote by Plato means that anyone is capable of evil things easily, but its harder to do something for another person without it being for selfish reasons or that you get some sort of benefit out of it. In the first chapter of Lord of the Flies, this quote seems to relate to Piggy and Ralph's actions towards each other in attempt to make themselves superior of the other. For example, when Piggy explains how his asthma effects his swimming abilities, right after he points out his own flaw, in attempt to cover it up he observes Ralph's swimming and says '' you can't half swim well'' (page 8) This is an unnecessary negative comment towards Ralph in attempt to sink him down even lower than his level, because Ralph does not even have an excuse for not being able to swim well. This goes to show how easy rude unnecessary comments can just slip out without realizing it kind of like a defense mechanism, when a good comment is sometimes harder to think of and say to a person.
RépondreEffacerI really liked your conclusion phrase at the end. It made me think about why saying harmful things is so much easier then saying kind words.
EffacerTo my perspective, the quote is stating that everyone has the power over their own evil like decisions, as much as they have the power to make any other choices for the good of themselves. The human being itself is very selfish and in the end, will do anything to keep its own self breathing. As much as we would like to give our life away for someone we love, our instincts and reflexes will do everything possible to make sure you stay alive. (Kind of like if you were trapped underwater, drowning, and running out of oxygen quickly, and all that was close by to pull yourself up was someone else, as much as the other dosent deserve to drown as much as you do, your instant body reflexe, to breath, will be to grasp that person in order to rise over the water. Keep this example in mind as i explain) This relates to the chapter one just read through the main characters introduced so far. Ralph, Jack and Piggy have all different perspectives and personality's related to their back story. Piggy being a little more litteral then Ralph and Ralph being imaginative. Ralph portrays over confidence compared to the others to be seemingly superior to them, "Making fun of Piggy's name on p.6, Continuously telling Piggy to shut up p.11, Breaking Piggy's trust by exposing his ridiculed name p.17" Ralph being selfishly evil is using Piggy as his life raft and sinking him instead. Piggy, suffering from asthma, is showing some kind of weakness that he will most likely have to deal with through the novel. Piggy is still some what defensive of himself, " Criticizing Ralph's swimming after Ralph insults Piggy on p.8 " This can maybe foreshadow a character development who may change Ralph in the process. (Characters roles switch or equalizes) This sums up that Ralph, being the one who dosent do good to another to uplift himself, may change in the process Piggy, turning him into someone who can easily do harm himself, in order to defend himself. Basically the cycle of selfishness.
RépondreEffacerAgreed with your idea of humans to be extremely selfish by human nature, but when you say ''As much as we would like to give our life away for someone we love, our instincts and reflexes will do everything possible to make sure you stay alive.'' i'd have to disagree because in many cases, human nature could also play for us to be unselfish and put our loved ones first. For example, A mother and her children, the majority of moms would in fact put their child first in a situation of such nature, in order for their children to live instead of them. This is an example of the motherly instinct, which contradicts with the selfish instinct. Other than that, totally agree with what you stated about the boys being selfish and try to seem superior to their others.
EffacerDoing harm is so easy because it doesn't require as much thought and effort as doing well others. Also, by putting someone down, confidence is easier to have and a feeling of superiority is also achieved. In Chapter 1, the theme of power is very important because it will probably determine everyone’s role on the island for the rest of the time. To demonstrate this sense of power, Ralph puts down Piggy by bullying him such as calling him rude names and making fun of him. He also ends up getting voted as chief. This might cause chaos in the future due to his harmful ways, so I think that the outcome of this situation is going to be bad. From the beginning, Ralph has been bullying Piggy. “I don’t care what they call me, so long as they don’t call me what they used to call me at school.” P.8 Afterwards Ralph only ever decides to call him Piggy. This is the beginning of a painful road for Piggy due to Ralph’s ignorance and lack of kindness.
RépondreEffacerTo me, this quote is mostly adressed to the boys and piggy in a way that piggy is the one that can do good to another and even many other by doing his best by trying to help them with his ideas and advices that are later either ignored or stolen, just like the part when he thought of the idea of blowing in the shell, hoping to attract the other boys to them but couldn't because of his asthma so he had to ask Ralph for it, and unfortunately he took advantange of Piggy's kindness and claimed being the one who had the idea. But another part of the novel just at the beginning, also well illustrated this quote, the part when Piggy introduces himself but is made fun of by Ralph and of course the other boys later in the chapter. "what's your name?' (p.3) 'They used to call me Piggy'.(p.6) This quote shows the innocence of piggy, how he thought he was being nice by asking Ralphs name and later tells his nickname but is sadly made fun of, this also shows how Piggy is being nice by asking for his name even thought Ralph doesnt seem intrested in him and doesnt even bother asking back, and later tells him the ambarrassing name that his school mates have given him. But Ralph for me might not mean so much harm by making fun of him but still, he did make fun of him which shows how he does easily harm Piggy by not always meaning it. To conclude, the boys including Ralph are the ones that can do harm compared to Piggy who is one of the few boys who can do good.
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EffacerI agree on what you say Mirenda, but Ralph also shows a bit of kindness when he realises that Piggy is sad after he calls him by his unfortunate nickname. Ralph looking with more understanding at Piggy, saw that he was hurt and crushed. "Better Piggy than Fatty" he said at last. (p.21) This shows that Ralph is not completly evil and has a good spot as well. However I feel that Jack will not be as nice as Ralph and will want to take control as leader.
EffacerPlato hints that humans can easily hurt one another by giving into to their animal instinct to 'kill or be killed', but it takes an enlightened man to know that doing good has better social outcomes than doing bad. The man who uses his intelligence and reason knows that peace is better than violence, co-operation is better than competition and civilized collective order is better than anarchy. Choosing to do good is really in one's own self-interest and creates more good, while harm results in retaliation. Not every man understands the power of good, and the positive effect of goodwill toward men. I think that the quote is very relevant, because the fundamental theme of the book is the stark contrast between civilization and savagery. Descending into cruel barbarity is a choice we humans make, as is preferring to see the best in people, giving the benefit of the doubt and striving to build an orderly and decent society together for the common good, rather than just destroying for selfish advantage. The triumph of Enlightened Man over Dark Ages Man is a powerful theme as it has been throughout human history. A concrete example of this quote can be found on page 11, when Ralph shrieks with laughter upon learning what the kids use to call Piggy, bringing great shame to Piggy.
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