Knowledge is of no value unless you put it into practice. Anton Chekhov - What does it mean? - How does it relate to chapter 2? - What concrete example of this quote can I find in the novel? (Remember to add page number)
The meaning of this quote to me is, if a person has knowledge , its kind of useless if they never use it. The quote relates the chapter 2 because we can see throughtout the chapter that many of the boys do have knowledge concerning survival ,and some of them do share their knowledge, just like Ralph who had the idea of making a fire on top of the mountain to attract any passing boat and the twins who gathered up dried leaves to make it easier to start the fire. But, there are still some that are scared to share what they know with the others, because they're afraid of being ignored or simply didnt have enough time to share it, which could have saved them from a lot of trouble they later had to face at the end of the chapter. Piggy is one of them, he wanted to be heard but never had the chance since the boys were always scattered all over the island because of all the excitement they had. Personnaly, this quote is mostly adressed to Piggy who had the knowledge but failed on using or precisely sharing it. "I got the conch! Just you listen! The first thing we ought to have made was shelters down there by the beach. It wasn't half cold down there in the night. But the first time Ralph says "fire" you goes howling and screaming up this here mountain. Like a pack of kids." He says in his quote that the idea of the shelters would have been better for them than the fire idea that wasnt that important yet since there was no boat in view. Even if i admit the fire idea was great, I would probably like the shelters idea better because their survival was pretty much more important at that time then being rescued, I wont say being rescued isnt important but their life and safety should be the priority.
Interesting Mirenda, I agree with the fact that you said some of the boys have knowledge about survival that they never use and is therefore, useless. I was thinking about how the bonfire on the mountain is seen differently by the boys. A boy without knowledge would see fire as a useful way to produce smoke and warmth yet someone with true knowledge would see the danger behind it's flames. Ralph only cares about the fact that they have smoke and warmth with the fire (even though it is burning up trees). Piggy is wiser and is the only one who notices that they could burn up the whole island with the fire. He says: “When you get here, you build a bonfire that isn’t any use. Now you been and set the whole island on fire.” (p.46). His knowledge is useless because he can't impose his opinion and no one listens to him... which might end up with the forest burning up.
I agree Mirenda, because Piggy was trying to speak and tell the other boys his point of view and his knowledge, but Jack and Ralph did not let him. When he finally spoke up, it had been too late. " - and them little 'uns was wandering about down there where the fire is. How d'you know they aren't still there?" (p.46) Piggy had good ideas, such as shelter, like Mirenda said, but the other boys did not give him the chance to talk.
Yes I totally agree with you Mirenda. Ad too add, at the end of the chapter piggy finally exclaims at p.46 :"Now you been and set the whole island on fire. Won't we look funny if the whole island burns up? Cooked fruit, roasted pork. And that's nothing to laugh at." Piggy finally speaks up to let himself be heard, but when it is basically too late.
you are right Mirenda, The boys should follow up more on Piggy and his perspective on things rather then how Ralph and Jack see things. The imaginative hope that the boys are creating themselves on being saved will kill them. The should be thinking like Piggy and focus on survival. “When you get here, you built a bonfire that isn’t any use. Now you been and set the whole island on fire. Won't we look funny if the whole island burns up? Cooked fruit, roasted pork. And that's nothing to laugh at." (on p.46)
I completely agree with you on this. Knowledge is to be used for different reasons, but if it's never used it's useless. When you said that this quote is mainly addressed to Piggy because he fails to share his knowledge it made me realize that he should really speak up more. Although, maybe the lack of respect he receives makes him lack confidence.
I agree. Different people have different skill sets and can contribute different ideas and point of views. I also think Piggy should speak up because although he lacks physical capabilities to help the boys he is a very smart person with wise ideas.
I agree with you Mirenda, there is no point in having a lot of knowledge if you don't share it with others. For example if all the great inventors and scientists such as Einstein, Newton, Franklin just to name a few hadn't shared their ideas and theories with the world with would probably still be living in prehistoric time. I also believe that Piggy should have warned the others earlier when it could have made a difference then when it was too late.
I agree with you Mirenda. The rest of the group (more precisely Piggy) should be allowed to speak openly without being scared nor shut down by either Ralph or Jack (the more powerful voices of the pack). Their knowledge on the situation could’ve been useful to the group before taking decisions. It could’ve prevented the multiple repercussions. It was only after the boys allow a fire to burn uncontrolled across the island that Piggy reprimands them with his voice of reason, pointing out the need for having the area of the fire to be cleared of debris so that it can be controlled. P. 46 “Then when you get here you build a bonfire that isn’t no use. Now you been and set the whole island on fire.” Which also adds that Piggy’s words are not considered until it is too late.
I agree with Mirenda when she made the point about Piggy having the right knowledge and the fact that he didn`t really have a chance to give his own point which lead for others. Unfortunately the group doesn't seem to be paying much attention to others when they are aware of the fact that they have to stick together and survive.
In this particular case, I do not think it's a question of Piggy being shy to express himself. Rather I think this more a case of the others not respecting Piggy and what he has to say to the group in terms of his ideas and suggested actions.
The quote explains that even though you have knowledge, it does not mean anything until it is used to help you or others. Knowledge is also only useful if you know how to properly use it. Someone may know everything but if he does not understand it (thus not being able to use it), knowledge is completely useless. Knowledge can also be useless if when transmitted to others, they discard it, ignore it or do not believe it. This can relate to Lord of Flies as in chapter 2 when one of the little kids tells about a snake or a beast Ralph laughs at him. Ralph says “He must have had a nightmare. Stumbling about among all those creepers.” P.35, in this case the knowledge given by the little kid was useless as those who received it denied it.
Good point Marc-André! I think the knowledge about a so-called "snake beastie" on the island will prove to be a very important aspect in the novel. Because the boys chose not to use this knowledge (for example, "'But there isn't a beast!' Something (...) compelled him to make a point, loudly and again. 'But I tell you there isn't a beast!' p.36) as Ralph is stubborn and will not admit the beast exists, which leads to consequence as at the end of the chapter, the "little 'un that had the mark on his face" who told them about the snake beast disappears. Here, knowledge is of no value and even leads to consequence.
More important than knowledge, is being able to accept and listen to the knowledge of others and to share ideas. If the boys would have listened to each other, they would have built shelters, they would have built a fire and they would have watched for the "snakes beasties". Because they were only listening to Ralph and Jack, they missed some important knowledge of others, such as Piggy and the littlun.
You're bringing up a good point Marc-André. We can see a seperation in the boys as the novel goes on. There are the leaders and older kids who get to make the decisions and then the small children and outcasts like Piggy who could also have very good points (as seen at the end of chapter 2 when Piggy says they should have made shelter first) but are being intimidated by Ralph and Jack because they are younger or different. This is creating chaos within the group because the rules are only based on the ideas of a few people who believe to have higher knowledge but really don't. Things could be better if they took in account other people's knowledge as well.
I was thinking about what you said Marc, over the idea that Ralph was stubborn and did not want to admit that the beastie existed. Ralph seems convinced by the idea that no snakes colonise on small islands. Only in big countries like India and well... Africa. My point is that perhaps the quote tunes into the reality that even if you have wrong knowledge about something, as you put this knowledge into practise, you will finally find that you are wrong. Yet the reality is that you will have had to put your knowledge to practice in order to come to the conclusion that, for example, snakes can live on small islands. In reality, any kind of knowledge is useless until you put it to practise.
I like your answer Marc-Andre, and I think that if they all used their knowledge together, they could make the best solutions possible after hearing out everyone's suggestions, and then making a decision.
I agree with your answer Marc-Andre and i think that knowledge is also even more useful when everyone's is combined together, because by doing that we get different perspectives and ideas of things.
You say that knowledge is only useful if you know how to properly it. This statement is very agreeable. For example, Ralph thinks that the story about the snakes/beast is useless but in fact it is very smart. The little kids knew that they're right and put their knowledge into practice when they had a debate with Ralph.
I agree with Marc-André. I had momentarily forgotten about the warning that one of the little kids gave about the beastie; this brings up a good point. Ralph stated that it couldn`t be a beastie when he might be wrong (by saying that it could only be found in Africa or India and nowhere near them). Not using his knowledge, he is probably putting him and the boys in trouble since he probably knows that it is a very dangerous creature.
Yes I agree with you Marc-André, that knowledge is useless unless used in the external world to effect change or to do something. However, it can be very valuable on a more personal basis, like in an internal belief system where it helps people to think about important things in life, without actually doing anything. For example thinking about a moral issue.
I believe this quote means that even though you know everything about anything, none of it matters unless you put it to good use. Your knowledge is irrelevant unless you apply it to certain life situations because if you do not do that, you are not helping yourself or the people surrounding you. For example, if you are a doctor, you should be able to assess a patient and determine the problem he has with the theoretical knowledge you possess. Although, if a patient comes to you with a problem and you are unable to diagnose him, your knowledge now becomes useless because you are not able to deal with the problem. This quote is seen through its positive and negative side in the novel. From an optimistic point of view, Ralph shares his knowledge with the group by telling them that every island has already been discovered. Sharing this information slightly relieves the others on the island because they are hopeful that someone will come and save them. On the other hand, Piggy does not share his knowledge with the group when it comes to making a fire. Therefore, the people on the island lose time by improperly attempting to make one. This problem could have easily have been fixed if Piggy had told them before it was too late. “My father’s in the Navy. He said there are not any unknown islands left” (p.36) Ralph is sharing his knowledge with the others, which creates a bit of comfort. “I got the conch! Just you listen! The first thing we ought to have made was shelters down there by the beach. It wasn’t half cold down there in the night. But the first time Ralph says fire you goes howling and screaming up this here mountain. Like a pack of kids!” (p.45) Piggy did not put his knowledge into practice soon enough and the group now has to restart everything. This pointless action could have been avoided if Piggy had shared his knowledge earlier.
I agree when it comes to Ralph because he shared his knowldge to help the group as a few of the other boys did as well. However, Piggy tried to give his opinion and share his knowldge but Jack and Ralph never listened to him until it was too late. "I got the conch,' said Piggy indignantly. 'You let me speak!' 'The conch doesn't count on top of the mountain,' said Jack, 'so you shut up." (p.42) Here we can see that Piggy had something to say, yet Jack does not want to hear it. So in this case, it is not Piggy's fault because he wanted to share his knowledge with the group.
I really like how you said that knowledge doesn't matter unless it is put to good use at a useful time and place Nyssa! Piggy gave his knowledge too late and the consequence is that they don't have shelter and the wood they could have used to build it is burning up. It also applies to the end of the chapter, when Piggy says: "Who knows how many we've got? Ralph replies 'I told you to . I told you to get a list of names!' 'How could I?' cried Piggy indignantly." (p.46) If Piggy had told someone sooner that he couldn't track all the kids by himself, they might not have lost one at the end. Knowledge (or in this case, the lack of knowledge) is of no value unless you put it into practice at the right time and place.
I like a lot how you said that the quote has a negative side as well as a positive side. Your example about Ralph is great because his sharing of knowledge did really give some hope to the children. It was also one of his few shining moments as a leader.
Your parallel with doctors made me understand this quote even more! Also, i never realized that Ralph was sharing great knowledge when he mentioned the islands. It just proves that every source of information that is put in to practice makes everyone a little bit more smart!
I agree, when the boys attend the group meeting many try at many instances to speak up and give their opinion. Meanwhile, the leaders seem to overpower their opinions. However, this is not allowing the other boys to share their knowledge to help the group.
I like the fact the you used different points of view to explain your analysis. It helped me realized new things. For example, Ralph was actually sharing knowledge by informing the group that every island had been discovered to bring comfort among the boys.
I had a bit of difficulty really picturing the quote but with your scenario I really could figure how to put it in context with the book. Thanks. I agree with all of your points and like how you saw them both positive and negative.
Even if Piggy had of shared his knowledge with the group, because he lacked personal authority and credibility with the group, his knowledge would of been discounted as unimportant.
Piggy tried to share his knowledge to the others, but they weren't listening to him. Another important thing, beside using our knowledge, is being able to share our knowledge, and this requires the attention and respect of others, which Ralph had, but Piggy hadn't.
This quote means that you could be the most educated person ever but it has no value unless you can use that knowledge to help another person or something. An example could be like if you find money in the forest, money is very valuable but it has absolutely no value in the forest since there is no place you can use it. In this chapter, Ralph and Jack think they have all the knowledge and that they're the smartest ones of the group just because they have power, but really some of the other boys have much greater intelligence and ideas but don't have the chance to share them because everyone listens to the leaders. "Piggy open his mouth to speak, caught Jack's eye and shut it again." (p.42) Even with the conch he doesn't even feel like he has the right to speak because none of the other boys actually listen to him or they just bash anything he says. He probably has the most knowledge out of all the kids but it is useless because the group doesn't use it to help themselves.
I like what your analogy Chloe... though I don't like the idea that you replaced knowledge with something as dirty as money. Naah, I'm kidding. I think you are bringing a good point. One William Golding is probably trying to make in this book. The point that the man who leads, or, should I say, the men who lead (in this case) are all stubborn. I'll revive the idea that Golding is trying to scale the entirety of the population on an island, as kids. He shows that one person in let’s say 75, is worthy of leadership because that one person in 75 is actually intelligent, knowledgeable and a logic thinker. And it makes us realise... well, we really did screw up. We put the leadership of countries and cities to people like Poutine, Hollande (I am not trying to get controversial) or Rob Ford. Then again. Is it really the fault of sane people? Or the fault of the fifty percent of 74 people, out of 75, who would still choose a leader like Rob Ford (his approval rate is still around 45%)?
I might've jumped to leadership of the island a little quickly. What I mean is that the people choose the wrong leaders (Jack, Ralph...) because we never listen to the good leaders (Piggy). We can blame the "wrong" leaders, for it.
We really shouldn't get controversial but since we already have... It's interesting how we can parallel the kids to many leaders in the world (*coughROB FORDcough*). Ralph was elected chief because he seemed nice, smart and had a powerful object: a conch. The kids on the island don't care if he is mean to Piggy (except for Piggy of course) and still follow him because of the core values he represents; leadership, optimism (his father will definitely save everyone) and a stubborn attitude when it comes to making decisions (THERE IS NO SNAKE.). The population will follow someone with fundamental values they like, values that can sometimes compensate for the evil deeds they commit, especially on a deserted island where there isn't much left except for fundamental values.
I agree Chloe, Out of the legitimate "leaders" (Ralph and Jack) and the other boys (Piggy and friends) Piggy demonstrates to be a more efficient leader with his vast knowledge compared to Ralph and Jack. Piggy thinks of all possibility's and problems that can be associated with a decision. For example Piggy thinks of the little boy with the mark on his face that was talking about the snakes when "the leaders" Ralph and Jack, only think about themselves and forgot that little boy even existed. The symbol of the conch, that represented the privileged to speak, totally lost its meaning because Ralph and Jack show that they are more important then the rules they layed themselves and anybody else. Everyone for themselves.
Everyone always listens to the leaders. I completely agree with you on that. But you also say that some of the other boys have much greater intelligence and ideas...Maybe this is false because we don't even know what they are thinking. I wouldn't say that the leaders are smarter, but the other boys aren't necessarily more intelligent either. I think the level of knowledge by the leaders is just more heard of then the knowledge of the other boys.
Well said Chloé, I like your "money in the forest" exemple. But when I think about it, Piggy is the one who is the less respected among all the boys. I honestly find it sad since he respects them very well, and i bet if they ever give him the respect he deserves or just give him a chance to express himself once again, maybe he'll speak up and wont be afraid to share his knowledge.
I liked your analogy about money Chloe and I agree with you that even when Piggy has the conch no ones listens to him because he is not the best speaker or an imposing person like Ralph and Jack. But I'm not sure about the part of the other boys having greater survival knowledge than the two main leaders (Ralph and Jack). As Victoria said we do not know what they think so we can't judge if they stay quiet because they don't know what to do or are actually scared to speak up.
I agree with the point that Victoria and Maurizio made about the other boys not necessarily having better ideas than the leaders because we don't really know what they're thinking. That's something i didn't realize and it's a good thing it got brought up.
The meaning of this quote to me is, if a person has knowledge , its kind of useless if they never use it. The quote relates the chapter 2 because we can see throughtout the chapter that many of the boys do have knowledge concerning survival ,and some of them do share their knowledge, just like Ralph who had the idea of making a fire on top of the mountain to attract any passing boat and the twins who gathered up dried leaves to make it easier to start the fire. But, there are still some that are scared to share what they know with the others, because they're afraid of being ignored or simply didnt have enough time to share it, which could have saved them from a lot of trouble they later had to face at the end of the chapter. Piggy is one of them, he wanted to be heard but never had the chance since the boys were always scattered all over the island because of all the excitement they had. Personnaly, this quote is mostly adressed to Piggy who had the knowledge but failed on using or precisely sharing it. "I got the conch! Just you listen! The first thing we ought to have made was shelters down there by the beach. It wasn't half cold down there in the night. But the first time Ralph says "fire" you goes howling and screaming up this here mountain. Like a pack of kids." He says in his quote that the idea of the shelters would have been better for them than the fire idea that wasnt that important yet since there was no boat in view. Even if i admit the fire idea was great, I would probably like the shelters idea better because their survival was pretty much more important at that time then being rescued, I wont say being rescued isnt important but their life and safety should be the priority.
RépondreEffaceroops, the page was (p. 45)
EffacerInteresting Mirenda, I agree with the fact that you said some of the boys have knowledge about survival that they never use and is therefore, useless. I was thinking about how the bonfire on the mountain is seen differently by the boys. A boy without knowledge would see fire as a useful way to produce smoke and warmth yet someone with true knowledge would see the danger behind it's flames. Ralph only cares about the fact that they have smoke and warmth with the fire (even though it is burning up trees). Piggy is wiser and is the only one who notices that they could burn up the whole island with the fire. He says: “When you get here, you build a bonfire that isn’t any use. Now you been and set the whole island on fire.” (p.46). His knowledge is useless because he can't impose his opinion and no one listens to him... which might end up with the forest burning up.
EffacerI agree Mirenda, because Piggy was trying to speak and tell the other boys his point of view and his knowledge, but Jack and Ralph did not let him. When he finally spoke up, it had been too late. " - and them little 'uns was wandering about down there where the fire is. How d'you know they aren't still there?" (p.46) Piggy had good ideas, such as shelter, like Mirenda said, but the other boys did not give him the chance to talk.
EffacerYes I totally agree with you Mirenda. Ad too add, at the end of the chapter piggy finally exclaims at p.46 :"Now you been and set the whole island on fire. Won't we look funny if the whole island burns up? Cooked fruit, roasted pork. And that's nothing to laugh at." Piggy finally speaks up to let himself be heard, but when it is basically too late.
Effaceryou are right Mirenda, The boys should follow up more on Piggy and his perspective on things rather then how Ralph and Jack see things. The imaginative hope that the boys are creating themselves on being saved will kill them. The should be thinking like Piggy and focus on survival. “When you get here, you built a bonfire that isn’t any use. Now you been and set the whole island on fire. Won't we look funny if the whole island burns up? Cooked fruit, roasted pork. And that's nothing to laugh at." (on p.46)
EffacerI completely agree with you on this. Knowledge is to be used for different reasons, but if it's never used it's useless. When you said that this quote is mainly addressed to Piggy because he fails to share his knowledge it made me realize that he should really speak up more. Although, maybe the lack of respect he receives makes him lack confidence.
EffacerI agree. Different people have different skill sets and can contribute different ideas and point of views. I also think Piggy should speak up because although he lacks physical capabilities to help the boys he is a very smart person with wise ideas.
EffacerI agree with you Mirenda, there is no point in having a lot of knowledge if you don't share it with others. For example if all the great inventors and scientists such as Einstein, Newton, Franklin just to name a few hadn't shared their ideas and theories with the world with would probably still be living in prehistoric time. I also believe that Piggy should have warned the others earlier when it could have made a difference then when it was too late.
EffacerI agree with you Mirenda. The rest of the group (more precisely Piggy) should be allowed to speak openly without being scared nor shut down by either Ralph or Jack (the more powerful voices of the pack). Their knowledge on the situation could’ve been useful to the group before taking decisions. It could’ve prevented the multiple repercussions. It was only after the boys allow a fire to burn uncontrolled across the island that Piggy reprimands them with his voice of reason, pointing out the need for having the area of the fire to be cleared of debris so that it can be controlled. P. 46 “Then when you get here you build a bonfire that isn’t no use. Now you been and set the whole island on fire.” Which also adds that Piggy’s words are not considered until it is too late.
EffacerI agree with Mirenda when she made the point about Piggy having the right knowledge and the fact that he didn`t really have a chance to give his own point which lead for others. Unfortunately the group doesn't seem to be paying much attention to others when they are aware of the fact that they have to stick together and survive.
EffacerIn this particular case, I do not think it's a question of Piggy being shy to express himself. Rather I think this more a case of the others not respecting Piggy and what he has to say to the group in terms of his ideas and suggested actions.
EffacerThe quote explains that even though you have knowledge, it does not mean anything until it is used to help you or others. Knowledge is also only useful if you know how to properly use it. Someone may know everything but if he does not understand it (thus not being able to use it), knowledge is completely useless. Knowledge can also be useless if when transmitted to others, they discard it, ignore it or do not believe it. This can relate to Lord of Flies as in chapter 2 when one of the little kids tells about a snake or a beast Ralph laughs at him. Ralph says “He must have had a nightmare. Stumbling about among all those creepers.” P.35, in this case the knowledge given by the little kid was useless as those who received it denied it.
RépondreEffacerGood point Marc-André! I think the knowledge about a so-called "snake beastie" on the island will prove to be a very important aspect in the novel. Because the boys chose not to use this knowledge (for example, "'But there isn't a beast!' Something (...) compelled him to make a point, loudly and again. 'But I tell you there isn't a beast!' p.36) as Ralph is stubborn and will not admit the beast exists, which leads to consequence as at the end of the chapter, the "little 'un that had the mark on his face" who told them about the snake beast disappears. Here, knowledge is of no value and even leads to consequence.
EffacerMore important than knowledge, is being able to accept and listen to the knowledge of others and to share ideas. If the boys would have listened to each other, they would have built shelters, they would have built a fire and they would have watched for the "snakes beasties". Because they were only listening to Ralph and Jack, they missed some important knowledge of others, such as Piggy and the littlun.
EffacerYou're bringing up a good point Marc-André. We can see a seperation in the boys as the novel goes on. There are the leaders and older kids who get to make the decisions and then the small children and outcasts like Piggy who could also have very good points (as seen at the end of chapter 2 when Piggy says they should have made shelter first) but are being intimidated by Ralph and Jack because they are younger or different. This is creating chaos within the group because the rules are only based on the ideas of a few people who believe to have higher knowledge but really don't. Things could be better if they took in account other people's knowledge as well.
EffacerI was thinking about what you said Marc, over the idea that Ralph was stubborn and did not want to admit that the beastie existed. Ralph seems convinced by the idea that no snakes colonise on small islands. Only in big countries like India and well... Africa. My point is that perhaps the quote tunes into the reality that even if you have wrong knowledge about something, as you put this knowledge into practise, you will finally find that you are wrong. Yet the reality is that you will have had to put your knowledge to practice in order to come to the conclusion that, for example, snakes can live on small islands. In reality, any kind of knowledge is useless until you put it to practise.
EffacerI like your answer Marc-Andre, and I think that if they all used their knowledge together, they could make the best solutions possible after hearing out everyone's suggestions, and then making a decision.
EffacerI agree with your answer Marc-Andre and i think that knowledge is also even more useful when everyone's is combined together, because by doing that we get different perspectives and ideas of things.
EffacerYou say that knowledge is only useful if you know how to properly it. This statement is very agreeable. For example, Ralph thinks that the story about the snakes/beast is useless but in fact it is very smart. The little kids knew that they're right and put their knowledge into practice when they had a debate with Ralph.
EffacerI agree with Marc-André. I had momentarily forgotten about the warning that one of the little kids gave about the beastie; this brings up a good point. Ralph stated that it couldn`t be a beastie when he might be wrong (by saying that it could only be found in Africa or India and nowhere near them). Not using his knowledge, he is probably putting him and the boys in trouble since he probably knows that it is a very dangerous creature.
EffacerYes I agree with you Marc-André, that knowledge is useless unless used in the external world to effect change or to do something. However, it can be very valuable on a more personal basis, like in an internal belief system where it helps people to think about important things in life, without actually doing anything. For example thinking about a moral issue.
EffacerI believe this quote means that even though you know everything about anything, none of it matters unless you put it to good use. Your knowledge is irrelevant unless you apply it to certain life situations because if you do not do that, you are not helping yourself or the people surrounding you. For example, if you are a doctor, you should be able to assess a patient and determine the problem he has with the theoretical knowledge you possess. Although, if a patient comes to you with a problem and you are unable to diagnose him, your knowledge now becomes useless because you are not able to deal with the problem. This quote is seen through its positive and negative side in the novel. From an optimistic point of view, Ralph shares his knowledge with the group by telling them that every island has already been discovered. Sharing this information slightly relieves the others on the island because they are hopeful that someone will come and save them. On the other hand, Piggy does not share his knowledge with the group when it comes to making a fire. Therefore, the people on the island lose time by improperly attempting to make one. This problem could have easily have been fixed if Piggy had told them before it was too late. “My father’s in the Navy. He said there are not any unknown islands left” (p.36) Ralph is sharing his knowledge with the others, which creates a bit of comfort. “I got the conch! Just you listen! The first thing we ought to have made was shelters down there by the beach. It wasn’t half cold down there in the night. But the first time Ralph says fire you goes howling and screaming up this here mountain. Like a pack of kids!” (p.45) Piggy did not put his knowledge into practice soon enough and the group now has to restart everything. This pointless action could have been avoided if Piggy had shared his knowledge earlier.
RépondreEffacerI agree when it comes to Ralph because he shared his knowldge to help the group as a few of the other boys did as well. However, Piggy tried to give his opinion and share his knowldge but Jack and Ralph never listened to him until it was too late. "I got the conch,' said Piggy indignantly. 'You let me speak!' 'The conch doesn't count on top of the mountain,' said Jack, 'so you shut up." (p.42) Here we can see that Piggy had something to say, yet Jack does not want to hear it. So in this case, it is not Piggy's fault because he wanted to share his knowledge with the group.
EffacerI really like how you said that knowledge doesn't matter unless it is put to good use at a useful time and place Nyssa! Piggy gave his knowledge too late and the consequence is that they don't have shelter and the wood they could have used to build it is burning up. It also applies to the end of the chapter, when Piggy says: "Who knows how many we've got? Ralph replies 'I told you to . I told you to get a list of names!' 'How could I?' cried Piggy indignantly." (p.46) If Piggy had told someone sooner that he couldn't track all the kids by himself, they might not have lost one at the end. Knowledge (or in this case, the lack of knowledge) is of no value unless you put it into practice at the right time and place.
EffacerI like a lot how you said that the quote has a negative side as well as a positive side. Your example about Ralph is great because his sharing of knowledge did really give some hope to the children. It was also one of his few shining moments as a leader.
EffacerYour parallel with doctors made me understand this quote even more! Also, i never realized that Ralph was sharing great knowledge when he mentioned the islands. It just proves that every source of information that is put in to practice makes everyone a little bit more smart!
EffacerI agree, when the boys attend the group meeting many try at many instances to speak up and give their opinion. Meanwhile, the leaders seem to overpower their opinions. However, this is not allowing the other boys to share their knowledge to help the group.
EffacerI like the fact the you used different points of view to explain your analysis. It helped me realized new things. For example, Ralph was actually sharing knowledge by informing the group that every island had been discovered to bring comfort among the boys.
EffacerI had a bit of difficulty really picturing the quote but with your scenario I really could figure how to put it in context with the book. Thanks. I agree with all of your points and like how you saw them both positive and negative.
EffacerEven if Piggy had of shared his knowledge with the group, because he lacked personal authority and credibility with the group, his knowledge would of been discounted as unimportant.
EffacerPiggy tried to share his knowledge to the others, but they weren't listening to him. Another important thing, beside using our knowledge, is being able to share our knowledge, and this requires the attention and respect of others, which Ralph had, but Piggy hadn't.
RépondreEffacerThis quote means that you could be the most educated person ever but it has no value unless you can use that knowledge to help another person or something. An example could be like if you find money in the forest, money is very valuable but it has absolutely no value in the forest since there is no place you can use it. In this chapter, Ralph and Jack think they have all the knowledge and that they're the smartest ones of the group just because they have power, but really some of the other boys have much greater intelligence and ideas but don't have the chance to share them because everyone listens to the leaders. "Piggy open his mouth to speak, caught Jack's eye and shut it again." (p.42) Even with the conch he doesn't even feel like he has the right to speak because none of the other boys actually listen to him or they just bash anything he says. He probably has the most knowledge out of all the kids but it is useless because the group doesn't use it to help themselves.
RépondreEffacerI like what your analogy Chloe... though I don't like the idea that you replaced knowledge with something as dirty as money. Naah, I'm kidding. I think you are bringing a good point. One William Golding is probably trying to make in this book. The point that the man who leads, or, should I say, the men who lead (in this case) are all stubborn. I'll revive the idea that Golding is trying to scale the entirety of the population on an island, as kids. He shows that one person in let’s say 75, is worthy of leadership because that one person in 75 is actually intelligent, knowledgeable and a logic thinker. And it makes us realise... well, we really did screw up. We put the leadership of countries and cities to people like Poutine, Hollande (I am not trying to get controversial) or Rob Ford. Then again. Is it really the fault of sane people? Or the fault of the fifty percent of 74 people, out of 75, who would still choose a leader like Rob Ford (his approval rate is still around 45%)?
EffacerI might've jumped to leadership of the island a little quickly. What I mean is that the people choose the wrong leaders (Jack, Ralph...) because we never listen to the good leaders (Piggy). We can blame the "wrong" leaders, for it.
EffacerWe really shouldn't get controversial but since we already have... It's interesting how we can parallel the kids to many leaders in the world (*coughROB FORDcough*). Ralph was elected chief because he seemed nice, smart and had a powerful object: a conch. The kids on the island don't care if he is mean to Piggy (except for Piggy of course) and still follow him because of the core values he represents; leadership, optimism (his father will definitely save everyone) and a stubborn attitude when it comes to making decisions (THERE IS NO SNAKE.). The population will follow someone with fundamental values they like, values that can sometimes compensate for the evil deeds they commit, especially on a deserted island where there isn't much left except for fundamental values.
EffacerI agree Chloe, Out of the legitimate "leaders" (Ralph and Jack) and the other boys (Piggy and friends) Piggy demonstrates to be a more efficient leader with his vast knowledge compared to Ralph and Jack. Piggy thinks of all possibility's and problems that can be associated with a decision. For example Piggy thinks of the little boy with the mark on his face that was talking about the snakes when "the leaders" Ralph and Jack, only think about themselves and forgot that little boy even existed. The symbol of the conch, that represented the privileged to speak, totally lost its meaning because Ralph and Jack show that they are more important then the rules they layed themselves and anybody else. Everyone for themselves.
EffacerEveryone always listens to the leaders. I completely agree with you on that. But you also say that some of the other boys have much greater intelligence and ideas...Maybe this is false because we don't even know what they are thinking. I wouldn't say that the leaders are smarter, but the other boys aren't necessarily more intelligent either. I think the level of knowledge by the leaders is just more heard of then the knowledge of the other boys.
EffacerWell said Chloé, I like your "money in the forest" exemple. But when I think about it, Piggy is the one who is the less respected among all the boys. I honestly find it sad since he respects them very well, and i bet if they ever give him the respect he deserves or just give him a chance to express himself once again, maybe he'll speak up and wont be afraid to share his knowledge.
EffacerI liked your analogy about money Chloe and I agree with you that even when Piggy has the conch no ones listens to him because he is not the best speaker or an imposing person like Ralph and Jack. But I'm not sure about the part of the other boys having greater survival knowledge than the two main leaders (Ralph and Jack). As Victoria said we do not know what they think so we can't judge if they stay quiet because they don't know what to do or are actually scared to speak up.
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EffacerI agree with the point that Victoria and Maurizio made about the other boys not necessarily having better ideas than the leaders because we don't really know what they're thinking. That's something i didn't realize and it's a good thing it got brought up.
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