Thommas Hobbes
- What does it mean?
- How does it relate to chapter 3?
- What concrete example of this quote can I find in the novel? (Remember to add page number)
Reminder: Tyler, Justin, Emilie Marcotte and Emily Winder must answer this.
You ONLY have to comment on TWO of the four answers that will be provided.
- What does it mean?
- How does it relate to chapter 3?
- What concrete example of this quote can I find in the novel? (Remember to add page number)
Reminder: Tyler, Justin, Emilie Marcotte and Emily Winder must answer this.
You ONLY have to comment on TWO of the four answers that will be provided.
Hobbes is referring here to a competition between two people to obtain something which is unattainable to both of them. As a result of this fight to achieve the unachievable the two people become frustrated and target their anger and resentment at the other person. Thus, this useless process ensures that the two people become enemies. This quote relates to chapter 3 in terms of the on going battle for power and control of the group, especially the littluns, to make them fall in to line and follow orders. Since neither is able to achieve this objective, they become frustrated and slowly but surely they are developing into enemies due to a mutual dislike because neither can achieve their collective objective of dominance over the group. Ralph and Jack desire the same thing, to be successful in their important respective tasks to ensure the group’s survival. However, both of them are failing to achieve success. Ralph cannot properly construct adequate shelter, to ensure the group’s safety and protection from the elements, whereas Jack is incapable of tracking and killing pig, to ensure that the group is well nourished. Because of their common lack of success, they become resentful and angry toward each other. This is evident in their very intense and uncomfortable interaction on page 52.
RépondreEffacerI agree that the source of their dispute is most likely rooted in their conflict for power. Both boys share this desire and Jack demonstrates remaining resentment towards Ralph's position as leader, particularly since his candidature has hardly considered. However, both boys equally profit from the other. The author seems to like comparing the two characters. For instance in the line at page 56 "(...) two continents of experience and feeling, unable to communicate" he shows their similarities and by describing them as "baffled in love and hate", describing their symbiotic yet tense relationship.
EffacerI agree Sarah, i never noticed how they described it as "baffled in love and hate", this is a pretty clear statement on how the boys felt. Ralph and Jack dont see alike and you can see that on p.55 when Ralph says " But you like it! shouted Ralph. You want to hunt! While I - " How does Ralph know what Jack thinks? The boys should realise that they are both working very hard for the same reason, and thats what should make them stronger as a team and not enemies. On the bottom of p.55, this is said " 'people dont help much' He wanted to explain how people were never quite what you thought they were. " who is the character who realises this? I cant tell wether it is Jack or Ralph...
EffacerI find it interesting how you say they have different desires which creates the conflict between them. Ralph is more concentrated on building shelters whereas Jack is more interested in catching food. They seem to want the same cause: survival, but do they really desire the same thing? Ralph seems more focused on building temporary shelters (he is conscious that they can't last forever) and Jack seems more focused on getting meat from a pig (which for the sake of pure survival, isn't necessary, they can survive on fruit and meat from crabs or fish or other animals that are easier to catch.) I think their desires are splitting up: Ralph is focused on temporary survival, waiting for rescue and Jack is focused on unnecessary royalties on the island, as if he is ready to stay for a long time. This is also demonstrated on page 55 in their conversation: "'Got it!' Jack shouted so loudly that Ralph jumped. 'What? Where? Is it a ship?' But Jack was pointing to the high declivities that led down from the mountain to the flatter part of the island. 'Of course! They (the pigs) lie up there - they must do, when the sun's too hot. (...) Ralph responds: 'I was talking about smoke! Don't you want to be rescued? All you can talk about is pig, pig, pig!" This shows how Ralph is determined to get rescued even though Jack seems to have accepted their fate and is trying to make their new permanent life on the island the best it could be.
EffacerRalph and Jack are enemies because they both want power, but they are also friends because they are able to stop their conflict when needed. So they are not total enemies, and they can both enjoy the power, each at their different task, Ralph at the "camp" and Jack in the hunting.
EffacerI agree with your statement that Ralph and Jack or turning into enemies because neither can achieve their objective. This growing dislike could also be seen as a difference of ideology. While Ralph is dedicated to building shelters for the group, Jack is determined to become a successful hunter and establish himself as a sort of hero among the group. Ralph's orientation is towards the group, while Jack is concerned with his own glory. P.52 ““But I shall! Next time! I've got to get barb on this spear! We wounded a pig and the spear fell out. If we could only make barbs−““We need shelters.”” Their opposite ways of thinking could be another factor to why they are becoming enemies.
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EffacerI agree with you Justin, Ralph has the power and Jack wants the power and this creates the conflict between the two boys. This conflict begins as early as in chapter 1 but remains hidden beneath the surface, the boys feel as they have to work together to build a community. In this chapter, however, the conflict erupts into verbal argument for the first time. As Ralph and Jack argue, each boy tries to give voice to his basic conception of human purpose: Ralph advocates building huts, while Jack wants to hunt and get meat. Ralph, who thinks about the overall good of the group, thinks that shelter is more important to survival than meat. Jack, drawn to the happiness of hunting by his desire to kill and desire for power, has no interest in building huts and no concern for what Ralph thinks..
I agree with what you said, Marc about Ralph wanting to be rescued whereas Jack has accepted that they are staying on the island for a long time. In a way, it is helpful that there is someone focused on both getting them rescued and surviving at the present time, but it is also true that to survive any length of time on the island the boys must act as a whole and get along. And as we can see in the boys' fight in this chapter, they are having a tough time getting along.
EffacerI like your reasoning Justin, I think that the tension in conflict over power has been present since the group voted Ralph to be the leader instead of Jack. I also like your point that the two are slowly becoming more and more hostile towards eachother, as they both crave power, and both have their own ideology as how to govern the group. Ralph wants to invest their time into longer lasting survival, as in settling down, making huts, whereas Jack has a short term view on survival, hunting for meat immediately and making smoke fires to trigger rescue.
EffacerI agree with you Justin, but is it just me or Simon is actually succeeding while Jack and Ralph aren’t. He actually gets food to the kids behind Jack’s and Ralph’s back. Maybe his success can create tension between the kids and their leader Ralph as Simon can accomplish things while Ralph can’t. Maybe the kids will see Simon more as a leader than Ralph.
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EffacerI really like what you guys have to say! It made me see the chapter a little differently. I would like to add a reason for which Ralph and Jack aren't getting along. Since Ralph and Jack are both selfish beings, it can be said that they are expected to act in a selfish way. Meaning that it wouldn't be crazy to think they are both looking forward to leadership. By which I mean that one wishes the other lost leadership (so they can rule alone). It can then be said that both are looking for the same thing, only they are trying to get to it in different ways (hunting for food vs shelter), and their failure makes them express this desire for power more openly and directly. There is also the fact that failure tends to madden any kind of children.
EffacerI agree with the fact that what Jack and Ralph both want is dominance on the group, I'd even say power over the group. Simon has a good point also that they are both being very selfish. They are so enthralled into being dominant and having things their way that it is affecting the rest of the group and everything is getting more and more chaotic. If Ralph and Jack keep fighting over the same thing, the boys just might not survive on the island for very long.
EffacerI'm agreeing with what Sandro said, but to further what he said about Ralph wanting to build hut's to support their life on the island, I believe this could be seen as a sort of civilized behavior, whereas Jack; Instead of wanting to construct an orderly structure, prefers to hunt with spear and blood, which is more of a primal behavior, this could also justify his bloodlust and growing ambition that is causing tension between him and Ralph.
EffacerI agree with what you say Justin. It really helped me understand the chapter better. I think the main conflict that we see here between Ralph and Jack is definitely that they are both trying to achieve power in two different ways. I also really like what you said Marc about the different mindset that both boys have. Ralph is in fact focused on temporary survival waiting for rescue whereas Jack is, like you said, focused on unnecessary royalties on the island. It sort of seems like Jack has completely erased the thought that they might be able to get rescued and decides to focus only on surviving this “new” life.
EffacerI agree with what you said Justin. Ralph and Jack are the two obvious leaders in the and in chapter three we clearly see that they are not working together. They both have different priorities, Jack focuses on hunting while Ralph’s goal is to build the shelters and keep the fire going. Having said this, their priorities clash when Jack goes hunting and leaves the fire die out when the ship passes; this makes Ralph extremely mad since he rather get saved than have meat. They both desire to be the most powerful on the island, and this is why they aren’t working together. They try their best to demonstrate their power, yet both Ralph and Jack cannot control their groups. So since these two leaders desire the ultimate power, they could become enemies.
EffacerEmilie Marcotte:
RépondreEffacerThis quote makes me think of two kids wanting the same toy but isn't one you can technically share. Because both kids can't enjoy the toy it's automatically the other's fault for not wanting to hand over the toy, and because of this the other kid becomes the enemy. This type of example is also shown in chapter 3 in Lord of the Flies. This is demonstrated through Ralph and Jack when they are in need and want of two specific things: Shelter and Meat. Instead of working together and putting their differences aside, they fight against each other because one hasn't completed the task that the other wants whether it is hunting or building. They also want recognition for their hard work. Because they are a team and know they have to work together to survive, when the other doesn’t complete their work it is seen as very bad; thus becoming enemies. “I was talking about smoke! Don’t you want to be rescued? All you can talk about is pig, pig, pig!” – Ralph “But we want meat!” – Jack “And I work all day with nothing but Simon and you come back and don’t even notice the huts!” p. 55.
Well said Emilie, i like your example on the kids and their toys. Ralph and Jack show different perspectives on how they think survival will work best. Ralph thinking that shelter is what will keep the littleuns safe until they get rescued and Jack thinking that having meat for meals is what is going to keep them all alive until they get rescued. They should focus on how they could both see eye to eye on one thing (survival) and build from that. You always work better as a team, and thats whats gonna keep them alive.
EffacerIt's true that they share the same goals and aspirations for the prosperity of the group. They'll have to realize this commonality, and band together to convince the rest of the group of the imperative of organisation to survive.
EffacerInteresting analogy Emilie! Like you said, it seems both boys (Ralph and Jack) want to play with the same toy (in this case, the group) and they want to play with it their own way. Because they can't play with it together, they are automatically ennemies. They're both fighting for leadership in their own way and both want the group to listen to them before listening to the other. The group seems to be stuck between the leader they chose and the leader who chose himself. I think it foreshadows that Jack will become a leader, the groups might even separate between the two boys and their fight.
EffacerInteresting idea, Marc. I wish the group doesn't separate.
EffacerI think that instead of splitting the group, the two boys will learn to lead together, and will with their different skills, help the group to get rescued. It would be more logic since the novel seems to be with a good morale, and because Ralph and Jack are both good leaders, in some way.
I really like that analogy! All Jack wants is to be recognized by the group as a savior because he will catch meat, therefore, he is doing his job in order to gain votes and not to help out for the survival of the island. On the other hand, Ralph does what's more important and essential, which is to build shelter. Ralph has a different attitude than Jack, he's doing it for the island survival and not for fame.
EffacerI like the analogy Emilie, and I also like the idea behind it, supporting the quote. Ralph and Jack's argument is preventing the whole group from setting their priorities straight. If they decide mutually on one strategy of survival, they can put all of their eggs in one basket and work more efficiently towards their idea of survival.
EffacerI agree with Sarah that the two boys both want what is best for the group, though they express this in different ways, in this case fetching meat or building shelter for the group. And they will have to learn to cooperate to be able to convince the group that survival is essential.
EffacerI love your allusion to the toy Emilie! That's in general what the two boys are doing, they are fighting over the same thing and how they want to achieve it. Ralph is especially reproaching Jack for not helping with the shelters, Jack just makes the excuse that meat is essential.
EffacerYes I completely agree with you, instead of Ralph and Jack helping each other they decide to argue and blame the other for not doing a good job. Although they want the best for the group (Jack wants the meat while Ralph wants to build the shelter) they will never achieve this if they don't agree. It is why I think there will be chaos sometime later since they will grow impatient of each other like your analogy of the two kids wanting the same toy.
EffacerGreat analogy Emilie, it's very well put into place. I agree that that Ralph and Jack’s desire for different things causes conflict between the two of them. They both would like the power to decide exactly what the kids will do first, but they both cannot have that power and therefore conflict arises. They both could not enjoy the power of decision because they both had different goals that they could not successfully accomplish and share.
EffacerI like the analogy Emily. I agree that in tough times it becomes a lot easier to blame the other person than to take on your responsibilties
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RépondreEffacerIn my opinion, this quote demonstrates that sometimes things can't be shared and people put their anger and blame onto others. An example of this could be if you and your friend like the same boy/girl, and since a person can't be shared, that leaves two options: either you let your friend have the boy/girl, or you can make this the start of a useless war where neither of you will obtain what you desire. This can be seen in Lord of the Flies, in chapter 3.Both Jack and Ralph have a common goal: survival and keeping the group in order. However, they refuse to help each other because they have different perspectives on how this goal can be reached. Jack wants to hunt and get meat, whereas Ralph wants to make shelters. Neither of them are succeeding because they are trying to do it all alone. They let out their frustration and anger at each other, which could, in time, stop being temporary fights and become a full time war between the two boys. This can be seen throughout the whole encounter between Jack and Ralph on the beach. And more specifically, in this quote: "And I work all day with nothing but Simon and you come back and don't even notice the huts!" - Ralph In this quote, we can see that he was working alone with Simon while Jack was off hunting. Results clearly could have been better had they worked together. (p. 55)
RépondreEffacerSorry about posting so late! Just got blogger to work!
I agree with you Jordan. To add, I like what you said in your analogy; about starting a war that none of the participants will win.
EffacerJack and Ralph will probably start a war, but perhaps none of them will win. It might just be Simon or Piggy who end up ruling the island, since the people will follow Simon or Piggy; the ones who are closer to them.
I agree with your analogy as well Jordan. I think that because Jack and Ralph are disagreeing with each other it will affect the island in a big way. I'm saying this because if the boys see their leaders arguing they will follow them and start arguing about everything and this will cause alot of trouble. Plus Simon might have something going with Piggy or Simon stepping up to the plate.
EffacerThe analogy of starting a war is indeed one that is comparable to what's currently happening, but I believe that war between 2 boy's is not all that's happening; I believe that Ralph represents how the groups grew up before the island, that is, he represents civilisation; He wishes to establish order by building structures. At the opposite end of the spectrum there is Jack, who'd much rather let the boys to themselves and go hunting with a select few of boys to feed them all; which in turn is a more primal adaption of behavior after being stranded. But I believe there is a middle, Simon; he's seen as the only one helping Ralph out with the hut's, but, after the dispute breaks out quickly retreats to the jungle and admires the jungle. I believe this "middle character" could further develop as we read more of the book.
EffacerI really like what you had to say. I like that you were able to find an analogy that would help us understand better this conflict. I also agree that the war they have because of their two completely different perspectives could potentially become a real war that could last for a while.
EffacerAlso, I like that you are thinking outside of the box Simon, and I strongly agree with your hypothesis since it would in fact make sense.
I agree with you Jordan, I think that if the kids don’t start to try to help, Jack and Ralph might cause a war as both cannot succeed in their duties alone. I think that there is going to be 2 teams with different perception of what is survival and it would be a separation between Jack and Ralph. As they are very powerful they can influence some people to think like they do. This disturbance on the island would all be because Jack and Ralph can’t figure out how to help each other out and resolve each other’s differences.
EffacerYou're right Jordan, the quote does explain well the situation between Jack and Ralph but if they dont get along soon, they might get their life and the others in trouble, because if they refuse to work together when they need to, then one of them might make a mistake that will affect everyone's life.
EffacerThe fact that you mention what might happen in the future is great! I was thinking the same thing while doing my notebook. Differences can cause big conflicts between characters. In the long run it might actually end up in a war and the island will end up in total chaos. If this prediction is wrong, I think that they will learn to work together or at least tolerate each other until someone comes to save them.
EffacerI agree Jordan, I think that if Ralph and Jack are left to do all the hard work without any recognition it will definitely strain their friendship and possibly cause a fight.
EffacerSorry for the late post:
RépondreEffacerI believe that this quote by Thomas Hobbes explains how selfish people are; People always want to be the winner or the number one at everything, If they both cannot be number one, they will instinctively become competitors to be the winner. This quote relates to chapter three of Lord of the Flies because both Jack and Ralph are competing over who has power, and in this chapter they show how competitive they both are over the power of the group by disputing over how the group works, “ ‘I was working too..’ ‘But you liked it!’ “ this competition is not over all good for the survival of the boys and instead they could just work together instead of putting the groups success into jeopardy. This goes to show how being selfish and power hungry can often be a very negative thing.
You mentioned that they could simply work together, i never thought of this before because i didn't think that they would be good teammates. But it's true that they are both powerful in different ways. If they would combine their ideas, they could both share the ultimate power. Kind of like Katniss and Peeta did in the Hunger Games.
EffacerYou are right Emily, selfishness in once again involved in the leaders conflict, I guess its because they are humans even if they are young, human are still born selfish
EffacerI agree Emily. Ralph and Jack are acting very selfishly because both want to acquire power, or in other words lead the group. Instead, they should be cooperating with each other and put their differences aside.
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