The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Franklin D. Roosevelt What does it mean? How does it relate to chapter 5? What concrete example of this concept can you find in the chapter?
''If you're scared of someone you hate him. You kid yourself he's all right really, an' then when you see him again; its like asthma an' you cant breathe. p. 101'' I found this quote from Piggy and in some way it describes this quote, if you replace that ''someone'' with fear, its more likely what Franklin D. Roosevelt is stating. To clarify, the human being itself is frightened by many things but psychologically we are all afraid of having the unsettling feeling of being afraid which then repeats its cycle and makes us afraid. In chapter 5 of Lord of the flies, the main topic is fear. The boys are put in a situation where they choose whether they believe or disbelieve in ''the beast'' and if it is existent and worth being afraid of. Some of the boys being more literal and others imaginative, but all perspectives either increase or decrease the element of fear they all have. ''The thing is - fear cant hurt you anymore than a dream. " p. 88 - Jack ''What would a beast eat? - Pig. - We eat pig. - Piggy! '' p. 89 This quote from Piggy to me ressembles like hes calling the boys, or what they have become, beast themselves. Since they have been stuck on this island, most of them have lost their head and become savage, whats the difference between animals and what the boys have become? and who's the real beast? ' '' Simon became inarticulate in his effort to express mankind's essential illness. '' p.96 Which is fear, Again supporting Franklin D. Roosevelt's quotation.
I really likes what you said Catherine! I agree with you on the fact that humans are seldom afraid until they really feel fear. It is true that what we see in this chapter tunes in very well with what Roosevelt said, and I think you said it very well, that the accumulation of smaller amounts of fear add up to a general feeling of fear, which of course, we dislike a lot. I don't have much more to say, well said Catherine!
I completely agree Catherine. I think fear was really well developed in the novel, especially how it grows through the chapters. Ever since a littlun mentioned the "Beast", fear has been escalating between the boys, but also curiosity. The boys keep wondering what the beast could be... a ghost? A sea-snake? Are they becoming crazy and there is no beast? Perhaps they are fearing themselves and the younger kids see the biguns as monsters. The boys are curious about this as soon as the first littlun disappears after mentioning the beast. They want to hunt the monster, discover it, find it, because they have the natural human response of being curious of things they don't understand. (and we all know that curiosity killed the cat...)
I really like what you said about the vicious cycle of fear and how our mind, with its imagination, can create its own fear. As Franklin D. Roosevelt said, the only thing to fear is fear itself, meaning that the only thing they should be afraid on the island is their own fear as their fear can turn every one of them crazy and up to here the fear of the beast created tensions and fights within the group. As their fear grows we see that the tensions and hatred towards each other grows.
I agree with you Catherine, I liked you quote from Piggy about fear because I feel that it shows exactly what Roosevelt quote signifies and it also relates really well with the book. I also agree that the boys are only creating a fear that doesn't exist which makes their lives much more complicated than it could be. They start arguing with each other and create tension between them as Marc-Andre said but I think in the end the Beast will be nothing else but their imagination.
Very good links to the chapter! I agree when you say that the fact that we are afraid of fear makes us, in turn, fearful. The older boys, who do not still possess the imagination the young ones do, are forced to either believe that a beast is living and could potentially harm them on the island, or to not believe, however, the young ones constant stories of spotting the best will make them fearful anyways.
Interesting comparison of Piggy and Roosevelt's quote. On p.107, we see that the fear of the beast overcomes the twins' logic and in their uncertainty of what they have just seen, with the added tension of fear, the assume they have witnessed proof to their greatest fears. Fear prevents them from seeing opportunity and by this blindness, they exaggerate the truth.
Your connection with Piggy furthered the quote of F. Roosevelt and made connections with the book! The little ones are very afraid of the beast, but if the beast eats pig well maybe the little ones represent the beast and Piggy represents the pig since he is always getting picked on. So i think they are fearing themselves which relates to Roosevelt's quote because they don't even realize what they actually fear.
I agree with all the things you said but especially when you said "we are all afraid of having the unsettling feeling of being afraid which then repeats its cycle and makes us afraid", the boys dont really know if there is a beast or not so the beast is not really what they're afraid of it's more fear itself.
I agree with what you said about the boys fearing the beast and everything being sort of like a vicious circle. They are afraid of the unknown, so the beast, and that fear is making them crazy. I also agree with your point about Piggy, I hadn't picked up on that!
I love how you said fear was a cycle Catherine! It's true because humans are made to be afraid in order to avoid harmful situations. We all are afraid of fear because we know that something bad usually comes with it. The boys in the story are all afraid of the beast but they don't realize to which point this is affecting them. They are turning mad and becoming savages. What they really should be scared of is the fear they have for the beast, and not as much the beast itself.
I agree with you Catherine. Those are very important analysis of fear. The boys in the book are afraid of the beast and it is affecting their survival mode. They are turning against each other. I agree Alexane, fear is an unpleasant feeling and in reality they fear fear itself rather than fearing the beast.
I really like the examples and the quotes that you are using for this quote. It relates well to 5th chapter. I do agree that it is a cycle and that the boys are either objective or imaginative. Personally, I think there's something out there (obviously for there to be a story line), but knowing that children are more sensitive to more mysterious and imaginative things, I think the littluns are right to be worried about a beast.
I agree that fear breeds fear. Roosevelt was correct in that fear of the unknown creates uncertainty and fear based on a lack of confidence. The littluns in chapter 5 are a perfect example of human's fearing fear. They have no proof that the beast exists yet they still fear it which proves that the only thing they have to fear is fear itself.
This is so real!!! The beast seems to be the boys' imagination since no one really saw it, but because they fear it, they do dangerous things, they get scared, it creates conflict between them... So the beast is really dangerous to them, but in fact it's only their fear. The only dangerous thing on the island is their fear, represented by the beast, which supports Franklin d. Roosevelt's quote.
I also agree with u Cat, so it seems true that they kind of created their own beast, from nightmares and imaginations. They havent actually met it yet but they are already afraid of what they THINK it looks like, and according to me, the author of this novel does know how kids think when they are scared. Its just like us when we were little, we all thought there was a monster under our bed.. we were silly but cute and i guess its just how those children felt, lost alone in the woods with no grown-up to fight the beast away for them and tell them that everything is alright and there is no need to worry. To me, they rely much more on their emotions than their reasoning, and they become scared of what they havent met.
This quote has different meanings and interpretations that could catalyst a discussion which could last hours on end. Albeit, with this in mind, I won't elaborate too precisely on the quote itself nor on fear in general; reading Sigmund Freud would greatly enlighten you in my place. In any case, this quote was delivered by FDR during his first inaugural speech, which happened to be the worst year of the depression. His belief was due to the fact that the general populace was terrified of the economy collapsing with the failure of the banks. People would take out their money from banks out of fear that they'd lose their money, which consequently bankrupted the banks. Now that you have a back story on this quote, It's apparent that it signifies the difference between "physical" fear and cognitive fear, and that the conceptual attitude towards fear could expand the degree of threat perceived to push the individual into conceptualizing non rational decisions. In the novel Lord of the Flies this quote is applicable in many instances for example: "'You stop talking like that! We got enough trouble, Ralph, an' I've had as much as I can stand. If there is ghosts-' 'I ought to give up being chief. Hear 'em.'" (100) This demonstrates the pseudo-fear that Ralph himself creates within his psyche, when, in reality there isn't a physical threat that could evoke such fear within the boy's.
Interesting! I agree 100% that Ralph is making up fear in his mind even though their is no threat. Another way of saying this, is that the boys are making things up out of nothing, which just continues to build up and make them more and more fearful.
I like your use of Freud's theories to explain this concept. It is true that in the presence of very strong cognitive fears, we can create physical barriers , like on p.109 when Golding writes “The bright morning was fill of threats and the circle began to change. It faced out rather than in, and the spears of sharpened wood were like a fence.” The boys’ fear ruins the order of their meeting and their spears create a violent border between them and civilization. It's a meeting of our fears to create a physical manifestation.
I really liked and agreed with what you said about different fears; physical and cognitive and how the fear that Ralph is making up is actually a cognitive fear and not a physical one threatening the boys. And when you fear something you cannot tell the difference.
This is very true! And it's strange to think that the beast probably doesn't exist, and is just a product of the boy's imagination! This means that the boys fear their fear... silly concept!
This makes a lot of sense Mackenzie. The boys have nothing to fear but their fear for the beast. Simon demonstrates this as well; the way he tries to describe the beast. He thinks the beast is one of them, the foulest thing on the island. Simon uses his common sense and notices how there is nothing to fear but the fact that if they live in fear, they will turn mad, they will become savages, they will become beasts. Simon is the only one who sees the world according to this quote, the rest of the boys can't see it the same way.
Freud's theories actually helped me understand a little more more in depth the meaning of this quote. And i agree especially with what Marc just said about how Simon realized there is nothing worst than living in fear, because if you're constantly fearing something, that's when you become paranoid and paranoia is the main source of someone's savageness since they're slowly losing their mind.
I agree with what you said about the different types of fear. Ralph is the leader, and so all the boys look up to him. If he is showing this cognitive fear of the beast, so will the others, so Ralph is pretty much creating the fear that all the boys are feeling.
Thanks for the little back story! It is nice to be able to apply concepts from the novel to real historical events. I agree with what Marc said as well about Simon being the only boy who thinks like Roosevelt's quote. Also, as Genevieve just said, it is true that if the leader, Ralph, shows fear, then that will spread through the whole group and can cause them to go mad.
I agree Mackenzie. The back story really helps us apply this quote to the book. Simon really represents this quote and the fact that Ralph fears the rest of the group will too.
I did not see this Mackenzie. The concept that Ralph is in fear had never crossed my mind. Perhaps it makes him a somewhat good leader, as the attitude of the leader is normally transferred to the people. It is often said that when the leader gives up, so does the people. I think that the amount of fearlessness showed on Jack's side overthrew Ralph, Simon and Piggy's uncertainty of the situation. It gives a good reason for the fact people joined Jack. They were seeking good attitude and courage.
I agree with you Mackenzie. I also really appreciated the history, giving us a little bit more support when arguing. We can now properly see a link between the two.
I agree with what you said, and I like the example you gave. I think if fear wouldn’t exist on the island there would be a lot less of problems to deal with. Worst of all they are afraid of a fear they created upon themselves. It also looks like Jack is trying to use that fear to convince Ralph that hunting is good. Someone like Jack could use this fear to his advantage and to make him more powerful.
Brilliant answer Mackenzie, you are right that fear is psychological however it is also felt in your gut and is therefore a negative emotion which must be controlled by a positive outlook and attitude to overcome negativity.
This quote by FDR is interpreted in many different ways. I believe he was trying to tell the population that we should be afraid of simply being afraid. If we are constantly afraid then we will not have the power to conquer many of our obstacles. A good example is the quote that Mack had in his log "'You stop talking like that! We got enough trouble, Ralph, an' I've had as much as I can stand. If there is ghosts-' 'I ought to give up being chief. Hear 'em.'" on page 100. We can see that Ralph seems to start to give up because there are so many obstacles that are put in his way that when they added this fear in him he started to give up.
''If you're scared of someone you hate him. You kid yourself he's all right really, an' then when you see him again; its like asthma an' you cant breathe. p. 101'' I found this quote from Piggy and in some way it describes this quote, if you replace that ''someone'' with fear, its more likely what Franklin D. Roosevelt is stating. To clarify, the human being itself is frightened by many things but psychologically we are all afraid of having the unsettling feeling of being afraid which then repeats its cycle and makes us afraid. In chapter 5 of Lord of the flies, the main topic is fear. The boys are put in a situation where they choose whether they believe or disbelieve in ''the beast'' and if it is existent and worth being afraid of. Some of the boys being more literal and others imaginative, but all perspectives either increase or decrease the element of fear they all have. ''The thing is - fear cant hurt you anymore than a dream. " p. 88 - Jack
RépondreEffacer''What would a beast eat?
- Pig.
- We eat pig.
- Piggy! '' p. 89 This quote from Piggy to me ressembles like hes calling the boys, or what they have become, beast themselves. Since they have been stuck on this island, most of them have lost their head and become savage, whats the difference between animals and what the boys have become? and who's the real beast? '
'' Simon became inarticulate in his effort to express mankind's essential illness. '' p.96 Which is fear, Again supporting Franklin D. Roosevelt's quotation.
I really likes what you said Catherine! I agree with you on the fact that humans are seldom afraid until they really feel fear. It is true that what we see in this chapter tunes in very well with what Roosevelt said, and I think you said it very well, that the accumulation of smaller amounts of fear add up to a general feeling of fear, which of course, we dislike a lot. I don't have much more to say, well said Catherine!
EffacerI completely agree Catherine. I think fear was really well developed in the novel, especially how it grows through the chapters. Ever since a littlun mentioned the "Beast", fear has been escalating between the boys, but also curiosity. The boys keep wondering what the beast could be... a ghost? A sea-snake? Are they becoming crazy and there is no beast? Perhaps they are fearing themselves and the younger kids see the biguns as monsters. The boys are curious about this as soon as the first littlun disappears after mentioning the beast. They want to hunt the monster, discover it, find it, because they have the natural human response of being curious of things they don't understand. (and we all know that curiosity killed the cat...)
EffacerI really like what you said about the vicious cycle of fear and how our mind, with its imagination, can create its own fear. As Franklin D. Roosevelt said, the only thing to fear is fear itself, meaning that the only thing they should be afraid on the island is their own fear as their fear can turn every one of them crazy and up to here the fear of the beast created tensions and fights within the group. As their fear grows we see that the tensions and hatred towards each other grows.
EffacerI agree with you Catherine, I liked you quote from Piggy about fear because I feel that it shows exactly what Roosevelt quote signifies and it also relates really well with the book. I also agree that the boys are only creating a fear that doesn't exist which makes their lives much more complicated than it could be. They start arguing with each other and create tension between them as Marc-Andre said but I think in the end the Beast will be nothing else but their imagination.
EffacerVery good links to the chapter! I agree when you say that the fact that we are afraid of fear makes us, in turn, fearful. The older boys, who do not still possess the imagination the young ones do, are forced to either believe that a beast is living and could potentially harm them on the island, or to not believe, however, the young ones constant stories of spotting the best will make them fearful anyways.
EffacerInteresting comparison of Piggy and Roosevelt's quote. On p.107, we see that the fear of the beast overcomes the twins' logic and in their uncertainty of what they have just seen, with the added tension of fear, the assume they have witnessed proof to their greatest fears. Fear prevents them from seeing opportunity and by this blindness, they exaggerate the truth.
EffacerYour connection with Piggy furthered the quote of F. Roosevelt and made connections with the book! The little ones are very afraid of the beast, but if the beast eats pig well maybe the little ones represent the beast and Piggy represents the pig since he is always getting picked on. So i think they are fearing themselves which relates to Roosevelt's quote because they don't even realize what they actually fear.
EffacerI agree with all the things you said but especially when you said "we are all afraid of having the unsettling feeling of being afraid which then repeats its cycle and makes us afraid", the boys dont really know if there is a beast or not so the beast is not really what they're afraid of it's more fear itself.
EffacerI agree with what you said about the boys fearing the beast and everything being sort of like a vicious circle. They are afraid of the unknown, so the beast, and that fear is making them crazy. I also agree with your point about Piggy, I hadn't picked up on that!
EffacerI love how you said fear was a cycle Catherine! It's true because humans are made to be afraid in order to avoid harmful situations. We all are afraid of fear because we know that something bad usually comes with it. The boys in the story are all afraid of the beast but they don't realize to which point this is affecting them. They are turning mad and becoming savages. What they really should be scared of is the fear they have for the beast, and not as much the beast itself.
EffacerCe commentaire a été supprimé par l'auteur.
EffacerI agree with you Catherine. Those are very important analysis of fear. The boys in the book are afraid of the beast and it is affecting their survival mode. They are turning against each other. I agree Alexane, fear is an unpleasant feeling and in reality they fear fear itself rather than fearing the beast.
EffacerI really like the examples and the quotes that you are using for this quote. It relates well to 5th chapter. I do agree that it is a cycle and that the boys are either objective or imaginative. Personally, I think there's something out there (obviously for there to be a story line), but knowing that children are more sensitive to more mysterious and imaginative things, I think the littluns are right to be worried about a beast.
EffacerI agree that fear breeds fear. Roosevelt was correct in that fear of the unknown creates uncertainty and fear based on a lack of confidence. The littluns in chapter 5 are a perfect example of human's fearing fear. They have no proof that the beast exists yet they still fear it which proves that the only thing they have to fear is fear itself.
EffacerCe commentaire a été supprimé par l'auteur.
RépondreEffacerThis is so real!!! The beast seems to be the boys' imagination since no one really saw it, but because they fear it, they do dangerous things, they get scared, it creates conflict between them... So the beast is really dangerous to them, but in fact it's only their fear. The only dangerous thing on the island is their fear, represented by the beast, which supports Franklin d. Roosevelt's quote.
RépondreEffacerI also agree with u Cat, so it seems true that they kind of created their own beast, from nightmares and imaginations. They havent actually met it yet but they are already afraid of what they THINK it looks like, and according to me, the author of this novel does know how kids think when they are scared. Its just like us when we were little, we all thought there was a monster under our bed.. we were silly but cute and i guess its just how those children felt, lost alone in the woods with no grown-up to fight the beast away for them and tell them that everything is alright and there is no need to worry. To me, they rely much more on their emotions than their reasoning, and they become scared of what they havent met.
RépondreEffacerbtw ... where is the quote for ch. 6, i cant find it..:/
RépondreEffacerThis is chapter 5 Mirenda ;)
EffacerCe commentaire a été supprimé par l'auteur.
RépondreEffacerThis quote has different meanings and interpretations that could catalyst a discussion which could last hours on end. Albeit, with this in mind, I won't elaborate too precisely on the quote itself nor on fear in general; reading Sigmund Freud would greatly enlighten you in my place. In any case, this quote was delivered by FDR during his first inaugural speech, which happened to be the worst year of the depression. His belief was due to the fact that the general populace was terrified of the economy collapsing with the failure of the banks. People would take out their money from banks out of fear that they'd lose their money, which consequently bankrupted the banks. Now that you have a back story on this quote, It's apparent that it signifies the difference between "physical" fear and cognitive fear, and that the conceptual attitude towards fear could expand the degree of threat perceived to push the individual into conceptualizing non rational decisions. In the novel Lord of the Flies this quote is applicable in many instances for example:
RépondreEffacer"'You stop talking like that! We got enough trouble, Ralph, an' I've had as much as I can stand. If there is ghosts-'
'I ought to give up being chief. Hear 'em.'" (100)
This demonstrates the pseudo-fear that Ralph himself creates within his psyche, when, in reality there isn't a physical threat that could evoke such fear within the boy's.
Interesting! I agree 100% that Ralph is making up fear in his mind even though their is no threat. Another way of saying this, is that the boys are making things up out of nothing, which just continues to build up and make them more and more fearful.
EffacerI like your use of Freud's theories to explain this concept. It is true that in the presence of very strong cognitive fears, we can create physical barriers , like on p.109 when Golding writes “The bright morning was fill of threats and the circle began to change. It faced out rather than in, and the spears of sharpened wood were like a fence.” The boys’ fear ruins the order of their meeting and their spears create a violent border between them and civilization. It's a meeting of our fears to create a physical manifestation.
EffacerI really liked and agreed with what you said about different fears; physical and cognitive and how the fear that Ralph is making up is actually a cognitive fear and not a physical one threatening the boys. And when you fear something you cannot tell the difference.
EffacerThis is very true! And it's strange to think that the beast probably doesn't exist, and is just a product of the boy's imagination! This means that the boys fear their fear... silly concept!
EffacerThis makes a lot of sense Mackenzie. The boys have nothing to fear but their fear for the beast. Simon demonstrates this as well; the way he tries to describe the beast. He thinks the beast is one of them, the foulest thing on the island. Simon uses his common sense and notices how there is nothing to fear but the fact that if they live in fear, they will turn mad, they will become savages, they will become beasts. Simon is the only one who sees the world according to this quote, the rest of the boys can't see it the same way.
EffacerFreud's theories actually helped me understand a little more more in depth the meaning of this quote. And i agree especially with what Marc just said about how Simon realized there is nothing worst than living in fear, because if you're constantly fearing something, that's when you become paranoid and paranoia is the main source of someone's savageness since they're slowly losing their mind.
EffacerI agree with what you said about the different types of fear. Ralph is the leader, and so all the boys look up to him. If he is showing this cognitive fear of the beast, so will the others, so Ralph is pretty much creating the fear that all the boys are feeling.
EffacerThanks for the little back story! It is nice to be able to apply concepts from the novel to real historical events. I agree with what Marc said as well about Simon being the only boy who thinks like Roosevelt's quote. Also, as Genevieve just said, it is true that if the leader, Ralph, shows fear, then that will spread through the whole group and can cause them to go mad.
EffacerI agree Mackenzie. The back story really helps us apply this quote to the book. Simon really represents this quote and the fact that Ralph fears the rest of the group will too.
EffacerI did not see this Mackenzie. The concept that Ralph is in fear had never crossed my mind. Perhaps it makes him a somewhat good leader, as the attitude of the leader is normally transferred to the people. It is often said that when the leader gives up, so does the people. I think that the amount of fearlessness showed on Jack's side overthrew Ralph, Simon and Piggy's uncertainty of the situation. It gives a good reason for the fact people joined Jack. They were seeking good attitude and courage.
EffacerI agree with you Mackenzie. I also really appreciated the history, giving us a little bit more support when arguing. We can now properly see a link between the two.
EffacerI agree with what you said, and I like the example you gave. I think if fear wouldn’t exist on the island there would be a lot less of problems to deal with. Worst of all they are afraid of a fear they created upon themselves. It also looks like Jack is trying to use that fear to convince Ralph that hunting is good. Someone like Jack could use this fear to his advantage and to make him more powerful.
EffacerBrilliant answer Mackenzie, you are right that fear is psychological however it is also felt in your gut and is therefore a negative emotion which must be controlled by a positive outlook and attitude to overcome negativity.
EffacerThis quote by FDR is interpreted in many different ways. I believe he was trying to tell the population that we should be afraid of simply being afraid. If we are constantly afraid then we will not have the power to conquer many of our obstacles. A good example is the quote that Mack had in his log "'You stop talking like that! We got enough trouble, Ralph, an' I've had as much as I can stand. If there is ghosts-'
RépondreEffacer'I ought to give up being chief. Hear 'em.'" on page 100. We can see that Ralph seems to start to give up because there are so many obstacles that are put in his way that when they added this fear in him he started to give up.