Albert Bandura
What does it mean?
How does it relate to Chapter 10?
What concrete example of this idea can you find in the novel?
How does it relate to Chapter 10?
What concrete example of this idea can you find in the novel?
mercredi 11 décembre 2013
Quote of the Day - Chapter 10
Group decision making is another common bureaucratic practice that enables otherwise considerate people to behave inhumanely, because no single individual feels responsible for policies arrived at collectively. Where everyone is responsible, no one is really responsible.
Albert Bandura
Albert Bandura
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This quote resembles what we spoke of in class. When people do things in a group, the blame is not put on one individual, which takes guilt off ones shoulders when doing actions that they would not do alone otherwise. This is seen in many ways throughout chapter 10 of Lord of the flies. Firstly, right at the beginning of the chaoter, Ralph is overwhelemed with guilt at the thought that he was present during Simon's death. "You were outside. Outside the circle. You never really came in. Didn't you see what we - what they did? (...) It was an accident,' said Piggy suddenly, 'that's what it was. An accident." (p. 173) Piggy firstly convinces Ralph that they did not infact participate in Simon's murder so they don't need to feel any guilt. They were just watching and standing around, being part of the group. Secondly, he tries to convince Ralph that it was actually Simon's fault because he "Had no business crawling like that out of the dark. He was batty. He asked for it."(p. 173) We can see Piggy is struggling to find excuses to free them both of their guilt, and although his arguments are not very successful, Ralph is desperate for an explanation that will get him "off the hook". These boys still are linked to civilization because we can see that even though all the boys are guilty, and so no one is guilty, as the quote states, they can't see it that way and still feel as though they are the culprits. (More Ralph than Piggy) Secondly, Jack and his hunters come stealing Piggy's glasses, hurting and scaring the other boys in the process. They are so far on the savagery side that I'm pretty sure they did not feel any guilt towards their actions, however even less so that they had their leader, Jack, to blame. This is again something similar to what we studid in class; when a leader gives you orders, are you really the one to blame?
RépondreEffacerReally true. It also relates to the documentary we watched in class today. The more I think about it, the more I am deceived about the human nature.
EffacerGood answer Jordan, I agree with what you're saying. This quote does in fact make me think of things we've talked about in class. Great example with Ralph's guilt of being present at Simon's death.
EffacerThats actually true and we do find it everywhere, even in our class lol, Love your answer Jordan.
EffacerWell said. like they mentioned in the documentary, this can be compared to the Nazi soldiers during WWII. Jack is the instigator. The other boys are following the orders of a tyrant who is seducing them, and turning them against good people. German soldiers were brought to trial and charged with the crimes they committed under the order of an authority figure. Like you put it, does that make them bad people? Should they have been charged? It's scary to think that,as we saw in the experiment, most people would have followed the orders.
EffacerI really like how you linked this quote to the ideas mentioned in class! Putting the blame on someone else totally makes it seem like you're less at fault. I also liked when you said that Ralph and Piggy represent civilization and that Jack and his tribe represent savagery. This makes me think that Jack and his tribe are going to try to eliminate Ralph and Piggy off the island in future chapters, then things are just going to be chaotic.
EffacerYes that is true, I feel like the only decent people left on the island are Ralph, Piggy and Samneric. Apart from that everydody has become savages. I liked what you said that Piggy tries to find arguments to say they weren't guilty of Simon's murder. And also that Jack's hunters did not feel guilty of stealing piggy's glasses because their leader told them to so it's ok.
EffacerI agree with you, yet I want to bring up how each boys reacted differently to Simon's death. Piggy dismisses the blame, everything is Jack's fault, he is the ultimate evil. Samneric are confused and not sure of what happened, they are trying to forget, dismiss the idea of murder yet it is still an afterthought. Ralph is the only boy who takes responsibility, he is the only "civil" boy who sees the fault in his actions, even if they were group actions. I think Ralph really liked Simon, Simon helped him all the time. Now that he is dead, Ralph is lonely and is starting to see things the way Simon did, how they are turning into savages.
EffacerI agree with you Jordan! This concept which the chapter reveals is very interesting... something you could look into for years... and as we've seen, the research would only be thoretical as it would be almost impossible to make research without making experiments which would be unethical, unfortunately.
EffacerI really like what you said and I completely agree with you. None of the survivors in Jack’s tribe take the responsibility as they all work in a group. This is why the civilization has fallen; they think they can do what they want if they work in a group.
EffacerGood answer Jordan, I really like how you alluded to what we did in class. It his very true that the group diffuses the guilt as a group, however this does not change the evil nature of the deed.
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RépondreEffacerSorry for the late post.. I completely forgot.
RépondreEffacerThis quote reminds me on the defense mechanisms subject we talked about earlier this month. I think we can easily see 3 of the defense mechanism seen in class. Repression and denial and projection. The quote by Albert Bandura can be linked to the mechanism of projection. "Where everyone is responsible, no one is really responsible." The fact that everyone took place in Simon's murder, it makes everyone responsible, so for that reason their isn't one person that is more to blame than the other. We can see that Ralph and Piggy had 2 different ways of dealing with this situation. Ralph was just completely overwhelmed with guilt. Piggy does not want to admit that it was their fault. He creates excuses to make their action seem "okay" which is a defense mechanism. First he tries to convince himself that it was an accident. "It was an accident, that's what it was. An accident. (p173) When this doesn't seem to work he projects the blame on Simon.. "Coming in the dark - he had no business crawling like that out of the dark. He was batty. He asked for it." (p173) Even after all of this he is still trying to convince himself that he did not do it. "We was on the outside. We never done nothing, we never seen nothing" (p.174) With this being said we can see that Piggy's way of dealing with this guilt is by avoiding the truth and trying to find excuses to his action. Projecting the blame on other people or in this case, even on the person that was murdered is the only way Ralph and Piggy are able to feel less at fault.
I really like the way you say when Piggy says it was "Okay" because of the fact that they were not exactly involved, that it is a defense mechanism. If it is so, it means that we feel the urge to protect ourselves against... ourselves.
EffacerI really like the way you brought 3 defenses mechanisms studied in class. I agree that Piggy tries to protect himself by denying, avoiding and creating excuses why he wasn't the one to blame. Even though he didn’t do anything, he never tried to help Simon; he only stood and watches Simon’s death.
EffacerIt's interesting that Piggy, who was kind, intelligent and a victim himself doesn't even have pity of sympathy for Simon. It shows that all humans can be evil, or accept evilness.
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