During the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.
Thomas Hobbes
What does it mean?
How does it relate to chapter 6?
What concrete example of this concept can you find in the chapter?
I think that this quote by Thomas Hobbes signifies that in civilisation, when there is no definitive leader in power, it is a type of war, with every man against every man. Or that in other words, with no definitive leader, a civilisation will be total chaos and anarchy. This quote has relation with chapter 6, because in this chapter, I think that we start to see more and more often the power being stripped from Ralph. For example, the final passage in chapter 6, shows that the rest of the group don't show the same obedience for Ralph as they used too. p.118 "'Im chief, we've got to make that certain. Can't you see the mountain? There's no signal showing. There may be a ship out there. Are you all off your rockers?' Mutinously, the boys fell silent or muttering. Jack led the way down the rock and across the bridge." This quote explains that Ralph was ordering the crew to follow him and go start the fires for the priority of help, but the kids just ignore him, and follow jack to go explore the newly found rock section of the island.
RépondreEffacerI agree with you that the power is slowly being stripped from Ralph because savagery seems to be overtaking the boys and Ralph knows that. You can see that he tries to assume his responsibility more but the influence of Jack is too strong that Ralph is loosing the power.
EffacerThis is true. I find that Jack seems to be getting more and more power, while Ralph is losing it. I'm surprised that no other boy tries to get more power, and that it is a conflict between Ralph and Jack only. In a normal group, usually, power gets more spread between everyone, which creates anarchy, while here, it's only between the two, which creates more conflict than anarchy.
EffacerYou make a good point Charles, I feel that Ralph is loosing his power as the leader and this task is becoming more and more to Jack. I also like what Sarah said, that usually power is wanted by more than two people but it seems here that nobody actually has the capacity to lead the group so they leave this conflict between Ralph and Jack.
EffacerI completely agree with you Charles... which means bad things will happen in the next few chapters. If anarchy will lead to every man for himself, it will probably lead to Ralph, Piggy and Simon splitting up. Ralph might become too weak and influenceable by Jack, Piggy might be rejected and almost antagonized be the other boys under Jack's demand and Simon... well... he would end up running away, hiding in secret groves, safe from harm. It's funny how even anarchy and chaos still has a certain amount of control... in this case, Jack's control.
EffacerI agree with all of you that Ralph's power appears to be taken away and perhaps given to Jack, as the boys will listen to him more now than they did earlier in the novel.
EffacerI completly agree with your statement Charles, the power is clearly non important at this point, survival, savagery and curiosity take over the sense of team work or any knowledge at this point.
EffacerYes marc, I also am lead to believe that this loss of power for Ralph, and gain of it for Jack, will progressively get worse as the book goes on.
EffacerI agree with what you said. Jack is getting more powerful while Ralph is losing it. I think that Jack is getting more powerful because the others can relate to his savage actions. Everyone is becoming more and more savage as there are no real rules to respect which gives Jack power over them.
EffacerI agree with you Charles, Sarah and Marc. I agree on the fact that Ralph is clearly losing his power. I do find it interesting that no one else than Ralph and Jack are fighting for power. This odd fact makes it evident that at some point, anarchy might come haunt the colony.
EffacerI believe that this is a very good why in explaining this quote. You also brought up a good point. Ralph seems to be over stepping his boundaries and with this is being rejected by the others. He's acting too much like a parent/adult for the kids and this is exactly what they were happy about leaving... They might revolt against him soon.
EffacerI agree that Ralph is slowly but surely losing his power and influence among st the group and that the battle between civilization and savagery is starting to lean further towards savagery.
EffacerGood point Charles. Ralph, being more civilised, worries about being rescued, which, in the kids eyes, is not as appealing as Jack's idea of survival, consisting of exploring and hunting and games.
EffacerThis quote means that every man is born with a desire to participate in the acts of war, when they do not have a leader. It also represents the state of anarchy because without a ruler, situations usually always end up in chaos. This relates to the book because in chapter 6, I questioned if Ralph was truly a good leader or not. And if the boys don’t have a leader to look up to, well they will just rely on their personal thoughts which will create conflict (war) in the novel. In the chapters before, Ralph had everything in control and barely let’s anything influence him. Now in this chapter, his leadership skills diminish and it seems like he’s giving up on that role. He even gets influenced by Jack. “Course I’m frightened. Who wouldn’t be?” p.109 this shows that he isn’t as confident as we thought. “There was no need! Now there is. Piggy’ll look after them.”p.110 this lack of self-confidence might hurt the group of boys in the end. And part of me thinks that the parachutist that died foreshadows death (conflict) in the future.
RépondreEffacerI like your interpretation of the quote. Although, I do believe that Ralph's admission of fear was a sign of strength of character and leadership skills. He is honest and expresses how he is feeling. If the leader is truthfully afraid and cannot admit it, the group suffers for his pride since his decision making skills may be hindered. Thus, he doesn't attempt to portray an fearless hero regardless of Jack's mocking.
EffacerGood point of view Victoria! I actually think though that Ralph is growing as a leader, he seems to be assuming his responsibilities more than before and is in fact more strong and confident, like Sarah said. I think maybe what makes it seem like he's not a good leader is that all the other boys are getting harder to control. In reason of their fear and Jack's influence, they have lost a lot of their attachment to society and are less prone to following the rightful leader. Instead, they are slowly falling out of Ralph's hands and into anarchy.
EffacerGood point Victoria. I think that with this new dilemma (the beast) Ralph is being challenged in his leadership abilities and with the fear of the beast the boys are growing more incontrollable and are definitely testing Ralph's abilities.
EffacerI also agree with you Victoria. I feel that because the boys haven't been in society for a long time they forgot about rules and order and think they can do whatever they want. The beast also is Ralph's first real challenge as a leader and in my opinion I think he is handling it poorly. He let Jack take control of the boys and now he has just Piggy and Simon actually listening to him.
EffacerI think you are right Victoria, how Ralph's leadership seems to diminish through the chapters. This goes well with the conflict of rules and discipline vs. fun. As the boys spend more time on the island, they get more and more tired of work. They start to follow a different leader, one who encourages fun (Hunting! Woooh!) Ralph leadership also diminishes because of this, he has less presence than Jack within the group of boys... which makes sense; they will follow someone who invites them to have fun before following someone who encourages shelter building and fire watching. (Yay!).
EffacerI found your statement about the parachutist foreshadowing death interesting. I hadn't looked at it that way but now I see that it could be an important symbol of the crumbling hierarchy of the island and the boys attempting to run it.
EffacerThat is a powerful statement Victoria, I like your point of view that Ralph may be the one gaining power, contrary to my statement, because of the beast.
EffacerI agree Victoria, we clearly see in this chapter that Ralph is losing power over the boys while Jack is gaining some. I also like your supposition about the dead parachutist! I never saw it as an element of foreshadowing.
EffacerI like it when you say that no leader will bring the people to think for themselves and it will create a war. This is very interesting because we did see some instance of this minus the war at the begining of the book. As the people were fed up with making huts on the beach, They simply abandoned and started playing in the "pool". This shows that this same situation, if we remove the leader, will create a very primal and savage environnement. It is practically putting the human being to its bear essentials.
EffacerI agree with most of what you said but im leaning a little more on Sarah's side about how he is actually growing as a leader and assuming the responsabilities that come with it.
EffacerI like what you said about Ralph’s self-confident is decreasing while his fear is growing. Maybe that’s another reason why the survivors are losing confidence in his leadership skills and turning their attention towards Jack. Jack seems the only one who still tries to gain power. I also like your foreshadowing of a conflict, those targeted will probably those who are against anarchy. Or maybe they will be challenge or forced to change their perception.
EffacerI agree with what you said Vicky. Although I'm seeing Ralph's growth as something of a bad thing. The kids are barely listening to him and that seems to be a problem. I also like what you said about foreshadowing death. Possibly this is stating that no one gets off the island no matter how long you stay on it since you'll die on it anyway.
EffacerWell said, Victoria.However, I tend to think that Ralph is a strong leader in the sense that he is thinking of the groups best interest, which is being rescued. Jack believes that hunting and exploring are the way to go in order to survive and of course, the kids find this mor appealing and exhilirating then building shelters, keeping a fire going, etc. Although Ralph lets his beliefs go momentarily, he regains composure and does not lose sight of the big picture.
EffacerI totally agree with you Victoria, I also believe that maybe Ralph is loosing interest or giving up on his role as leader among the boys, I feel as though when the young boys had lost interest on the search for the beast, it was a symbol of how things might be in the near future, that everyone will lose hope and interest, but to stay alive and make things work among the group it is crucial that they must keep interest and that they do not lose hope.
EffacerGreat point Victoria, although I do believe that Ralph is becoming a stronger and more powerful leader than Ralph because he's thinking about the groups best interrest - getting rescued - rather than being self centered. I also like what you said about the dead parachutist! I had not seen it as an element of foreshadowing.
EffacerI believe that Thomas Hobbes is trying to pass the message that in a civilization, when their is no leader, no one to govern and their is no one to look up to, all society becomes unorganized and chaotic. Hence, every man fights for their own survival. This quote relates with chapter 6, because the reader realizes that the islands civilization is slowly disintegrating into anarchy. The leader Ralph, is losing power over the other kids. For example, Ralph see’s that their is no fire on the top of the mountain and orders the kids to start it up again “We want smoke and you go wasting your time . You roll rocks.” Roger shouted “We’ve got plenty of time” on p.117. Ralph is not seen as imposing like he was at the beginning of the novel. On the other hand, Jack seems to become more of a powerful and menacing figure in the camp as Ralph asks him to lead the way during the beast hunt “ He let Jack lead the way; and Jack trop with theatrical caution” p.112
RépondreEffacerWe can conclude that the balance between civilization and savagery is slowly shifting on the island and these events foreshadow a savage war on the island.
Wow, I never thought about linking that quote back to the main conflict in the play. It's true that the boys are in a limbo of sorts in their political affairs. If Ralph represents civilization, then Jack's growing sway in the group would symbolize the rise of savagery.
EffacerThat's a very interesting point Sandro. Its true that this novel in a way touches different government styles and key components of a society. If those boys represent civilization and savagery, I wonder what the other boys symbolize?
EffacerWow!!! What a dark idea: rise of savagery. But it is true, and the fact that Jack is getting more and more power only means that the boys will be more and more savage. Even if Jack represents savagery, he's not so terrible because he is leading, he (rudely) takes care of everything... so I don't think it will lead to a war. Especially if all the boys follow Jack. I can't believe it will lead to a savage war because they can leave civilization and live like savage without harming each others. They are already living alone, in wilderness, working to survive, so they are surely to be more and more savage, without necessarily being evil.
EffacerYou're right Sandro, I also didnt notice how the civilisation is disintegrating into anarchy, its a very well thought, well i think it is since i never thought about it... but some1 in the class did mention it also, but i wouldn't think of relating to this chapter. nice lol.
EffacerI agree with you that Ralph is less imposing and Jack is getting more powerful. Jack's increasing credibility among the group isolates Ralph as being a leader. Jack’s focus on the games of hunting and building forts more appealing to the boys than Ralph's commitment to keeping the fire burning and remaining safe. Jack is slowly influencing the others especially the littluns into thinking alike (savagely).
EffacerThat thought never really crossed my mind, im happy you put it out there Sandro. To think that this could be viewed in completely different perspective including yours foreshadows soo many events to this novel. well thought.
EffacerIt's very true how Jack is more of an imposive leader on the boys and seems to have a bigger affect than Ralph does. But also, we see that some of the other boys are showing signs of leadership too, like when Roger tells the other that they always need smoke but it's Ralph who tells him that they have plenty of time and not the other way around.
EffacerJack's primitive behavior and actions appeals more and more to the rest of the group as they become more accustomed to savagery without a system of social order which restrains uncontrolled power. The breakdown of social order causes Jack to grow stronger and stronger by the day.
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