Destroy your primitivity, and you will most probably get along well in the world, maybe achieve great success -- but Eternity will reject you. Follow up your primitivity, and you will be shipwrecked in temporality, but accepted by Eternity.
Soren Kierkegaard
What does it mean?
How does it relate to Chapter 7?
What concrete example of this idea can you find in the novel?
Society encourages its members to respect the tools it provides but these tools may only function in a controlled environment. They do not account for the obstacles one might encounter in the wild. Kierkegaard’s quote represents the imperative of embracing natural impulses. These words can easily be applied to the context of chapter 7 of Lord of the Flies. Ralph symbolizes the fleeting power of civilization whereas Jack, the tedious Eternity of primitivity. Jack’s growing sway within the group is proof of that the boys are attracted to his efficiency. As Ralph loses power, the allusions to his growing hair (p.121) and longing for home are increasing (p.122). His rejection of natural instinct when in a wild environment is destroying him, as we witness him assimilation to Jack’s philosophy. “Ralph too was fighting to get near, to get a handful of that brown, vulnerable flesh. The desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering.” (p. 125) Thus, we cannot resist to natural impulses and savagery will always overthrow civilization. It would seem that Kierkegaard and Golding agree on this point.
RépondreEffacerI really like how you say that Ralph symbolizes the fleeting power of civilization and Jack the eternity of primitivity! It is especially shown in this chapter because we see that primitivity is winning over civilization because civilization isn't adaptable to the circumstances that the boys are living.
EffacerI agree with you that Ralph is assimilating to Jack’s savage ways. We notice this adaptation during the re-enactment of the hunt with a bigun named Robert. Ralph's excitement at killing shows that even he has a savage side to him, though it's more repressed.
EffacerI agree with you that Ralph is falling to his human primitivism of savagery. It shows how human without rules can quickly turn against himself and start acting as a savage. It is shown in this chapter that everyone can succumb to their natural state if they are not careful and if they are peer pressured as is Ralph. Ralph also knows that the majority of the survivors fell into a savage state which brings him the dilemma on the mountain to either wait to the morning and show that he is not as brave as Jack and lose his power on the group or climb the mountain at night and keep the power he has.
EffacerVery true Sarah! the savagery has most likely taken over and it is very well expressed in chapter 7. All the leader-ish power is going to Ralphs head, even though he appears as different, he isint better then the rest with his desire to lead, even if his intentions are good, this group has just gone to wild to control.
EffacerThere are countless examples of how Ralph's grasp on civilization is weakening, one of the best might be his clothes. At the beginning of the book, he takes off his clothes and then puts them back on, he is deciding between civilization and savagery. For most of the book however, he only takes off his clothes to bathe. We also see his clothes getting dirty and even hurting by rubbing against his skin, demonstrating how, as much as he wants civilization to thrive, it will not lead him to Eternity, his clothes begin to hurt and will eventually get ripped apart by savagery. Civilization will always be ripped apart by savagery.
EffacerSo true! The whole group is growing more and more savage, and many symbolisms, such as dirtiness, uncomfortable clothing, pigs and savage hunting are proving it. I think that the conch doesn't have any effectiveness anymore. Not even Ralph!
EffacerI had problems understanding the quote, what you said helped me a lot! Thank you for that. I really like what you said about primitivity that catches up to civilisation when the human being is isolated from civilisation. This quote really shows what Golding is trying to convey as a message, si I do agree on the fact that Golding and Kierkegaard had the same opinion regarding human nature. Well said Sarah.
EffacerI really liked the way you explained this quote, made me see it in a way i didnt completely analyse. Even if Ralph is the leader and the one who seems most in control of the group, he is still affected by the lack of structure and civilization on the island. This proves everyone has a little bad in them even if they are good poeple with good intentions.
EffacerThe example you gave shows us exactly how much our environment has an impact on us. Even a strong minded person like Ralph got affected by the civilization of savagery and turned savage himself. The fact that he's a good person and still did savage actions makes us believe that it is something humans do naturally.
EffacerI really liked and agree with your ideas, I also find that even though Ralph's intentions may have been good (having fun with the boys) his instincts masked the fact that he was actually beating and torturing the boy named Robert because he had dehumanized him. Ralph here showed how he also has evil human instincts.
EffacerWell said Sarah, I love how you explained the quote. Great to see that you could incorporate the two leaders in this quote, each representing the stark opposite. It is very obvious that as the book further progresses, the power of civilization is deteriorating amongst the group.
EffacerTo me this quote signifies that if you hide your flaws or your different personality you may achieve great success but without being true to yourself. While if you don't mind showing who you really are to the world you may not achieve as much but atleast you are being yourself. This relates to chapter 7 in the book with Ralph, because at this point of the novel he is getting isolated and ignored from the group so instead of being quiet and doing nothing he decides to change his personality for abit. When the group encounters the boar Ralph throws his speer and hits it, he gets thrilled and yells to everyone that he hit the pig. " Ralph was full of fright and apprehension and pride. I hit him! The spear stuck in-" (p.124) We notice that Ralph is vying for the other boys attention and repeats himself several times " I hit him said Ralph again, and the spear stuck in a bit. He felt the need of witnesses." (p.124) So Ralph changes who he is to try and be accepted again. In real life this happens alot, people try to change who they are or hide their thoughts so they are accepted by their peers. It might have worked for Ralph and for people in real life but is it really that important to change who you are to satisfy others?
RépondreEffacerI agree with your explanation of the quote. I also agree with you that Ralph is changing himself to fit in with the rest of the group. I expected Ralph to eventually start to turn in character to maybe more of a laid-back persona. Unfortunately he was coming on too strong (seeming more like a parental figure) and so now he has to change his ways to become a better leader. For this situation he might need to change because he doesn't seem to be the best leader for his group (especially having to control 6 year olds...). It might be for the best if he calms down a bit and relates more to the kids; maybe having fun in the process, he is still a kid.
EffacerI like what you said that Ralph would need to hide his flaws and his personality to be successful and be more powerful on the island. In this chapter we see that by acting as a savage he is more successful with others as he is accepted. To stay in power this is what he will need to do, but by doing so he would jeopardize the civility of the island. If he continues he would be a model to the others, and they would think it is how the way to behave. If he puts rules and tries to establish civility on the island he would stay true to himself but will lose power and be less successful.
EffacerI really like what you are saying Maurice, I didnt see it that way when i first read that chapter. The only thing i saw was Ralph turning into Jack- the blood thirsty hunter- and I was later afraid that he might become savage and go run after pigs, naked with Jack and the other savages. But this quote points out a different perspective of that chapter and you and the others did express it nicely~!
EffacerNice interpretation of the quote Maurizio! I hadn't thought of it that way. Ralph may be trying to hide his flaws because it is easier for him yet I don't think it's working to the benefit of the boys since this lets Jack take over.
EffacerUniformity is a flaw in our generation these days, everyone striving to be like their neighbour, to be identical and not considered abnormal. I think Ralph, despite being leader, is very pressured by his peers, the other boys. He gets assimilated by Jack's love for hunting and even joins the boys as they "play" hunting with Robert, he is overwhelmed by the game and feels compelled by his primitive desires to join the boys, not to be the odd one out.
EffacerSimon is another character who isn't accepted for his true self, and he resents it a lot. I feel as if he knows or understands something the others don't know, but can't express it. Does someone else noticed it?
EffacerI like what you said Maurizio! I really like your question too. Asking if it is really important to change in order to satisfy the people around you made me think; As the children are now practically down to their bare essentials, could it mean that it is a way of survival, to change ourselves in order to integrate in society? Changing may be as important as keeping ones own life. It could also represent a certain level of selfishness as Ralph is practically the colony's last hope, and now he is changing in order to be accepted. Perhaps the colony has started its journey towards a dark future.
EffacerWow, I hadn't looked at the quote that way but what you say makes a lot of sense! It's true that Ralph seems to be changing for the worse to fit in, perhaps succumbing to the primitivity of Jack and the other boys.
EffacerGood analysis on this quote relating to the chapter Maurizio! I like your idea that he may be attracting attention towards himself in the fact that he killed the boar, but it may be that he is trying to fit in.
EffacerVery good way to explain this quote, i also agree with Miranda. I didnt see that he was trying to change his ways to accepted when i was reading the chapter. All i saw was him letting into the savage world and become a little more like Jack as a leader, but what you just said made me see it in a completely different way!
EffacerI'm quite confused now because I don't know what to think. Maybe Ralph is trying to change his personality to fit in with the others and be accepted more as a leader. Yet, naturally he would be savage like this because of the environment he's already in. I think a bit of both of these statements influence his behavior in this chapter.
EffacerKierkegaard was a 19th century philosopher who pushed the boundaries of theology. He pushed people to take responsibility for their own individual choices and strive to become an individual beyond socially imposed identities.Primitivity to him meant naturalness and originality. In his quote, he says that as long as everyone follows the imposed norms by society, life will run smoothly and with no disturbances nothing will rock the precious boat we call life. But when he says eternity will reject you he means to say you will die eventually just like everyone else. To explain, those who usually go out of the norm are often seen as disturbers or "weird" at first. But when those people die they are more often remembered over someone who didn't go above the norm to make a difference. For example, Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela just to name a few. We remember them and even celebrate their amazing successes therefore do not get rejected by eternity. In the novel, Ralph realizes that the conditions of savagery and uncivilized manners are "normal" now and that he is one of the few who long to return to a more "clean" world. The new culture that everyone has come to accept is one that Ralph strives to remain independent of. On page 120, Ralph sighs at this realization and he feels condemned. This is when he decides to stay removed from the norm in order to remain unique, to remain leader.
RépondreEffacerThanks for the great background lesson! It really justifies the quote more. Good job! I also agree with you on Ralph's need to change... Unfortunately himself isn't the proper leader to control this group. He seems to be too grown up compared to the rest of them.
Effacervery interesting past references! I agree with your statements and how Ralph needs to see from another perspective, he should try and understand more why the others are acting this way and less about being ''leader'' , he may be a good one but not when no one else wants to listen to him nor agree with him.
EffacerI completely agree with your analysis of this quote. I like how you gave some background information, it really helped me further understand the quote! We can see that in this chapter perhaps Ralph represents acting outside of the norm and Jack and the others represent the typical way of living.
EffacerI like your analysis that Ralph needs to change his leading ways, because I also think that he is slowly losing control over the group.
EffacerThank you for that information regarding Kierkegaard, Leslie. I completly agree with your analysis, I believe that savagery does exist in every boy, and sometimes they cannot escape this evil.
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