God is dead. We have killed him you and I. Friedrich Nieztche What does it mean? How does it relate to Chapter 8? What concrete example of this idea can you find in the novel?
I believe it means that humans are naturally evil (against God) and that, even if they don't work together, they contribute to evilness together. This statement relates to Chapter 8 because the group is separating at this point, but, even if they are now apart, they work together in evilness. It's showed when Ralph, who seems to be the less evil disrespects Simon and isn't very good. Jack's group is a very good proof of this quote because he seems to make an alliance with the "Devil" when he says "The head is for the beast. It's a gift." p. 151. Together, in their separation the boys are creating evil, and are certainly "killing God" in the way they are mean to each other.
I also wanted to ask something. I noticed that at p.36, Ralph says "...there aren't any unknown islands left. He says the Queen has a big room full of maps and all the islands in the world are drawn there." and that at p. 103, it's described that there is a "sudden bright explosion and a corkscrew trail across the sky". I can't tell when the book is taking place. Is it maybe during Queen Victoria's reign since she has a map of all the islands, or is it during WW2 since there's a aerial fight? What do you think?
I like how you say the boys make a pact with the devil. It seems that as the book moves on, they become more and more evil, almost guided by some outside force. Their lives are guided by fear, fear of the Beast, and if they can't overcome the Beast, they have to work with it. We already know evil actions are easier to accomplish than good actions, it's easier for the boys to follow the devil, the lord of the flies, and to be evil, just like the Beast. Working with the idea of evil is easier than against it, especially if they believe evil has a physical appearance on the island, the only thing the boys can do is follow the Beast and hope it won't destroy them all.
Also, I don't think the book is meant to be placed in any specific time... the aerial fight could be from any war, even one that doesn't exist. I think the reference to the Queen's map room is just a story between Ralph and his father, possibly referring to Victoria, without the book happening at the same time.
Interesting remark about Jack's hunters seeming to take part in satanism. Their religions is based off of fear, and they cannot even face the thing which they venerate. Most popular modern religions have gods which represent the force of good. Society needs to believe their creators love them and want them to prosper. This idea helps to function but he boys believe the opposite.
I really like your comparison with Jack to the devil which is very true. He has the same qualities too; selfish and mean. He might have better qualities as a leader but the reason why no one wants him to be chief is because he's so disrespectful. So even if Ralph isn't the best one to lead the group, he at least listens to everyone's thoughts. I also like that you mention the beast, I think it is the main symbol for evil and it is probably leading them towards evil. In this case, god is dead and the devil is coming out because they are all turning savage.
I think you can really see the loss of innocence take part in this chapter when Simon returns to the forest glade. At first, it is a place of natural beauty and peace, but when Simon returns in this chapter, he discovers the bloody sow’s head impaled upon a stake. The bloody offering to the beast has disrupted the paradise that existed before, and truly shows the evil nature that can disrupt childhood innocence.
I believe this quote talks a bit more about the fact that the concept of god is dead. God can be seen as both a person that sits on a big throne and judges the dead, with the help of Jesus, of course. Yet he can also be seen as a concept. It can be said of a person that “he has god”. This can mean that, the person is either populated by a person who listens to his prayers, or that this person is full of goodness. The quote appeals to the notion of god being the goodness in all of us because it is impossible for someone to kill an immortal being. It is possible though, that “We have lost all the goodness present in our beings, you and I”. This quote means that, when the being becomes evil, it symbolises the death of the God that we all have in ourselves. This quote relates very well with the chapter as in the chapter, we see the last bit of goodness being drained out of Jack and his hunters. This is seen when Jack and his hunters have a lot of fun with the pig’s blood. “’Look.’ He giggled and flinked them while the boys laughed at his reeking palms.”
Well said Simon, I really love your answer, well I actually love both of your answer, you and Sarah, but hers was a bit more complecated for me. Anyways, I really love the answer you gave and specially these words are deep "The quote appeals to the notion of god being the goodness in all of us because it is impossible for someone to kill an immortal being." So if i try to get what you're telling its that, they killed the good inside of themselves by letting the evil loose. very clever.!
Nice job Simon. I agree with the fact that God can be seen in two different ways, as a person or more as a concept. It is true that this quote speaks more of the concept of God. I also like how you said God represents goodness and that it is somewhat present in all of us. In the book, the boys are in fact killing this side of themselves and I think the Lord of the flies is a reflection of that.
I really like what you said Simon, that god can be seen as a concept and that god is within us all. In the book each one of them are decreasing bit by bit their little god inside of them with bad actions. As you said they can’t kill an immortal being, they can only turn bad and hope that someday their goodness will comeback.
I liked what you said Simon. I think that after this event, Jack and his hunters have crossed the line from good to evil. I also liked what you said about your concept about God, that there is two different ways of seeing him. I feel like when the boys having killed the sow have eliminated any good in them and thus have killed God.
I agree with what you said Simon about the two sides of God. It's true that we all have good inside of us, but the Lord of the Flies as we can see is what's killing that goodness and making room for evil.
Good answer Simon, I like your interpretation on god. It really helps differentiate your perspection on good vs. evil. your answer is well focused on the aspect of god. The boys savagery represents well the bad on the island, and the good kids like Simon and Ralph represent the god aspect.
Before reading your answer i never perceived god like that. Being an actual figure that we look up to and just being a concept. Maybe we could compare you answer to the beast. The kids can't see it and are not even 100% sure if it exists. Maybe its just a character that is going to scare the kids but it's also a concept. The beast is leaning them towards evil though which is getting rid of god-like qualities.
I agree with you about God being a concept, and that the concept of god or "goodness" has died in most of the kids, who have turned to their evil, savage nature.
I believe that this quote means that God can be associated with anything good and sacred, by most. He can symbolize hope, heaven, and perfection. So by saying God is dead, Nietzsche implies that all the good is vaporized in the world, or on the island. This leaves evil in power. “We have killed him you and I.” indicates that it is humans who are responsible for destroying good. Nietzsche alludes to the dark and evil side that humans have, and how we tend to destroy positive/good things in our society. Nietzsche is said to have believed that modernity is what killed God. People lose faith since they need to see things in order to believe. The fact that people believe in science over religion demonstrates that we desire knowledge and want answers to everything with legitimate proofs. This quote applies to chapter 8 when Jack and the other hunters hunt the mother pig . This pig is innocent with its babies, and the hunters attack it with arrows. They kill it savagely; Roger even drives his spear forcefully in the pig’s bum, which, to me, demonstrates how savage they are. After this the boys put the pig’s head on a stick and offer it to the beast. Later on in this chapter, Simon sees this head and it haunts him. It’s almost as if the pig has a special power since Simon is mesmerized by it. Yet it is boys like him who killed it. By doing so, they’ve amplified their desire for blood and violence. They showed no remorse as the dead head stands on a wooden stick. So the boys kill an innocent pig feeding her piglets. It can have a god-like figure, since it seems as if it comes to life and becomes “The Lord of the Flies” while speaking to Simon. The lord says that Simon will never be able to escape him, since he is part of every human. Simon then faints. Simon can also later on be seen as a Christ-like figure because of what happens to him in the next couple of chapters, which is linked to the idea of human killing God. “Jack held up the head and jammed the soft throat down on the pointed end of the stick which pierced through into the mouth. He stood back and the head hung there, a little blood dribbling down the stick.” (page 150) The boys seem to be in awe of what they have accomplished. “’Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill!’ said the head. For a moment or two the forest and all the other dimly appreciated places echoed with the parody of laughter. ‘You knew, didn’t you? I’m part of you? Close, close, close! I’m the reason why it’s a no go? Why things are what they are?’” This is when the head (The Lord of the Flies) is speaking to Simon. “’This has gone quite far enough. My poor, misguided child, do you think you know better than I do?’” The head speaks and acts as a powerful and spiritual figure.
I completely agree with you Nyssa, the boys have killed God on the island and all that remains is the opposite, the Beast. The Lord of the Flies was an innocent mother sow, trying to help her piglets, and she was savagely killed by the boys. They killed all the good on the island and what is left is a "dim-eyed head, grinning faintly", an absolute evil. Simon knows this and he knows that the evil isn't outside on the top of the mountain waiting to kill them all, it's in each and every one of the boys, slowly waking up. The Lord of the Flies isn't evil, it only shows the boys a reflection of their true nature, they are the real Beasts.
Great answer Nyssa! I like how mention the fact that the pig was a mother, I think by adding this information the author emphasized the cruelness and the carelessness of the boys because not only the mother died but her piglets are probably going to die without her too. I also really like how Marc in his comment mentions that the Lord of the flies is a reflection of the boys nature and that they are the Beasts. The Lord of the flies represents savagery since he is the product of the boys savagery. When he says: "You knew, didn't you? I'm part of you?" he is basically saying that savagery is in everyone. I think maybe the flies could represent the distribution of the savagery in everyone from this one central source.
I agree with you Nyssa, the boys killed "God" represented by the mother pig, and therefore the evil will now take over the island. The evil is also stronger symbolized further, as the pig which the boys brutally kill is a mother. Evil is slowly but surely taking over good.
To add, in Catholicism, God characterized as "Father". True that the mother pig could be an allusion to this concept of the creator. The savagery pulled the mother from her babies, now they will be lost, perhaps even die.
I really like how you mention the savagery the boys needed to kill a mother who was feeding her little ones. In this chapter we really can see how the god, the goodness, in some of the survivors has been long gone and that evil is powerful. Evil is so powerful in many of the survivors that they do not fully understand the consequences of their actions. It has become for them easier to act like savages.
It's true that the boys seem to be killing what's left of the goodness inside of them. By killing the mother pig and, like Sarah said, leaving her babies lost and alone to die, they are succumbing to the evil side of themselves, which the Beast represents. As the book progresses, we see that the boys are abandoning more and more the God-like side of themselves and siding more with the evil side.
I believe it means that humans are naturally evil (against God) and that, even if they don't work together, they contribute to evilness together. This statement relates to Chapter 8 because the group is separating at this point, but, even if they are now apart, they work together in evilness. It's showed when Ralph, who seems to be the less evil disrespects Simon and isn't very good. Jack's group is a very good proof of this quote because he seems to make an alliance with the "Devil" when he says "The head is for the beast. It's a gift." p. 151. Together, in their separation the boys are creating evil, and are certainly "killing God" in the way they are mean to each other.
RépondreEffacerI also wanted to ask something. I noticed that at p.36, Ralph says "...there aren't any unknown islands left. He says the Queen has a big room full of maps and all the islands in the world are drawn there." and that at p. 103, it's described that there is a "sudden bright explosion and a corkscrew trail across the sky". I can't tell when the book is taking place. Is it maybe during Queen Victoria's reign since she has a map of all the islands, or is it during WW2 since there's a aerial fight? What do you think?
I like how you say the boys make a pact with the devil. It seems that as the book moves on, they become more and more evil, almost guided by some outside force. Their lives are guided by fear, fear of the Beast, and if they can't overcome the Beast, they have to work with it. We already know evil actions are easier to accomplish than good actions, it's easier for the boys to follow the devil, the lord of the flies, and to be evil, just like the Beast. Working with the idea of evil is easier than against it, especially if they believe evil has a physical appearance on the island, the only thing the boys can do is follow the Beast and hope it won't destroy them all.
EffacerAlso, I don't think the book is meant to be placed in any specific time... the aerial fight could be from any war, even one that doesn't exist. I think the reference to the Queen's map room is just a story between Ralph and his father, possibly referring to Victoria, without the book happening at the same time.
Interesting remark about Jack's hunters seeming to take part in satanism. Their religions is based off of fear, and they cannot even face the thing which they venerate. Most popular modern religions have gods which represent the force of good. Society needs to believe their creators love them and want them to prosper. This idea helps to function but he boys believe the opposite.
EffacerI really like your comparison with Jack to the devil which is very true. He has the same qualities too; selfish and mean. He might have better qualities as a leader but the reason why no one wants him to be chief is because he's so disrespectful. So even if Ralph isn't the best one to lead the group, he at least listens to everyone's thoughts. I also like that you mention the beast, I think it is the main symbol for evil and it is probably leading them towards evil. In this case, god is dead and the devil is coming out because they are all turning savage.
EffacerI think you can really see the loss of innocence take part in this chapter when Simon returns to the forest glade. At first, it is a place of natural beauty and peace, but when Simon returns in this chapter, he discovers the bloody sow’s head impaled upon a stake. The bloody offering to the beast has disrupted the paradise that existed before, and truly shows the evil nature that can disrupt childhood innocence.
EffacerI believe this quote talks a bit more about the fact that the concept of god is dead. God can be seen as both a person that sits on a big throne and judges the dead, with the help of Jesus, of course. Yet he can also be seen as a concept. It can be said of a person that “he has god”. This can mean that, the person is either populated by a person who listens to his prayers, or that this person is full of goodness. The quote appeals to the notion of god being the goodness in all of us because it is impossible for someone to kill an immortal being. It is possible though, that “We have lost all the goodness present in our beings, you and I”. This quote means that, when the being becomes evil, it symbolises the death of the God that we all have in ourselves. This quote relates very well with the chapter as in the chapter, we see the last bit of goodness being drained out of Jack and his hunters. This is seen when Jack and his hunters have a lot of fun with the pig’s blood. “’Look.’ He giggled and flinked them while the boys laughed at his reeking palms.”
RépondreEffacerWell said Simon, I really love your answer, well I actually love both of your answer, you and Sarah, but hers was a bit more complecated for me. Anyways, I really love the answer you gave and specially these words are deep "The quote appeals to the notion of god being the goodness in all of us because it is impossible for someone to kill an immortal being." So if i try to get what you're telling its that, they killed the good inside of themselves by letting the evil loose. very clever.!
EffacerNice job Simon. I agree with the fact that God can be seen in two different ways, as a person or more as a concept. It is true that this quote speaks more of the concept of God. I also like how you said God represents goodness and that it is somewhat present in all of us. In the book, the boys are in fact killing this side of themselves and I think the Lord of the flies is a reflection of that.
EffacerI really like what you said Simon, that god can be seen as a concept and that god is within us all. In the book each one of them are decreasing bit by bit their little god inside of them with bad actions. As you said they can’t kill an immortal being, they can only turn bad and hope that someday their goodness will comeback.
EffacerI liked what you said Simon. I think that after this event, Jack and his hunters have crossed the line from good to evil. I also liked what you said about your concept about God, that there is two different ways of seeing him. I feel like when the boys having killed the sow have eliminated any good in them and thus have killed God.
EffacerI agree with what you said Simon about the two sides of God. It's true that we all have good inside of us, but the Lord of the Flies as we can see is what's killing that goodness and making room for evil.
EffacerGood answer Simon, I like your interpretation on god. It really helps differentiate your perspection on good vs. evil. your answer is well focused on the aspect of god. The boys savagery represents well the bad on the island, and the good kids like Simon and Ralph represent the god aspect.
EffacerBefore reading your answer i never perceived god like that. Being an actual figure that we look up to and just being a concept. Maybe we could compare you answer to the beast. The kids can't see it and are not even 100% sure if it exists. Maybe its just a character that is going to scare the kids but it's also a concept. The beast is leaning them towards evil though which is getting rid of god-like qualities.
EffacerI agree with you about God being a concept, and that the concept of god or "goodness" has died in most of the kids, who have turned to their evil, savage nature.
EffacerI believe that this quote means that God can be associated with anything good and sacred, by most. He can symbolize hope, heaven, and perfection. So by saying God is dead, Nietzsche implies that all the good is vaporized in the world, or on the island. This leaves evil in power. “We have killed him you and I.” indicates that it is humans who are responsible for destroying good. Nietzsche alludes to the dark and evil side that humans have, and how we tend to destroy positive/good things in our society. Nietzsche is said to have believed that modernity is what killed God. People lose faith since they need to see things in order to believe. The fact that people believe in science over religion demonstrates that we desire knowledge and want answers to everything with legitimate proofs. This quote applies to chapter 8 when Jack and the other hunters hunt the mother pig . This pig is innocent with its babies, and the hunters attack it with arrows. They kill it savagely; Roger even drives his spear forcefully in the pig’s bum, which, to me, demonstrates how savage they are. After this the boys put the pig’s head on a stick and offer it to the beast. Later on in this chapter, Simon sees this head and it haunts him. It’s almost as if the pig has a special power since Simon is mesmerized by it. Yet it is boys like him who killed it. By doing so, they’ve amplified their desire for blood and violence. They showed no remorse as the dead head stands on a wooden stick. So the boys kill an innocent pig feeding her piglets. It can have a god-like figure, since it seems as if it comes to life and becomes “The Lord of the Flies” while speaking to Simon. The lord says that Simon will never be able to escape him, since he is part of every human. Simon then faints. Simon can also later on be seen as a Christ-like figure because of what happens to him in the next couple of chapters, which is linked to the idea of human killing God. “Jack held up the head and jammed the soft throat down on the pointed end of the stick which pierced through into the mouth. He stood back and the head hung there, a little blood dribbling down the stick.” (page 150) The boys seem to be in awe of what they have accomplished.
RépondreEffacer“’Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill!’ said the head. For a moment or two the forest and all the other dimly appreciated places echoed with the parody of laughter. ‘You knew, didn’t you? I’m part of you? Close, close, close! I’m the reason why it’s a no go? Why things are what they are?’” This is when the head (The Lord of the Flies) is speaking to Simon.
“’This has gone quite far enough. My poor, misguided child, do you think you know better than I do?’” The head speaks and acts as a powerful and spiritual figure.
I completely agree with you Nyssa, the boys have killed God on the island and all that remains is the opposite, the Beast. The Lord of the Flies was an innocent mother sow, trying to help her piglets, and she was savagely killed by the boys. They killed all the good on the island and what is left is a "dim-eyed head, grinning faintly", an absolute evil. Simon knows this and he knows that the evil isn't outside on the top of the mountain waiting to kill them all, it's in each and every one of the boys, slowly waking up. The Lord of the Flies isn't evil, it only shows the boys a reflection of their true nature, they are the real Beasts.
EffacerGreat answer Nyssa! I like how mention the fact that the pig was a mother, I think by adding this information the author emphasized the cruelness and the carelessness of the boys because not only the mother died but her piglets are probably going to die without her too. I also really like how Marc in his comment mentions that the Lord of the flies is a reflection of the boys nature and that they are the Beasts. The Lord of the flies represents savagery since he is the product of the boys savagery. When he says: "You knew, didn't you? I'm part of you?" he is basically saying that savagery is in everyone. I think maybe the flies could represent the distribution of the savagery in everyone from this one central source.
EffacerI agree with you Nyssa, the boys killed "God" represented by the mother pig, and therefore the evil will now take over the island. The evil is also stronger symbolized further, as the pig which the boys brutally kill is a mother. Evil is slowly but surely taking over good.
EffacerTo add, in Catholicism, God characterized as "Father". True that the mother pig could be an allusion to this concept of the creator. The savagery pulled the mother from her babies, now they will be lost, perhaps even die.
EffacerI really like how you mention the savagery the boys needed to kill a mother who was feeding her little ones. In this chapter we really can see how the god, the goodness, in some of the survivors has been long gone and that evil is powerful. Evil is so powerful in many of the survivors that they do not fully understand the consequences of their actions. It has become for them easier to act like savages.
EffacerIt's true that the boys seem to be killing what's left of the goodness inside of them. By killing the mother pig and, like Sarah said, leaving her babies lost and alone to die, they are succumbing to the evil side of themselves, which the Beast represents. As the book progresses, we see that the boys are abandoning more and more the God-like side of themselves and siding more with the evil side.
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