Socrates
What does it mean?
How does it relate to Chapter 9?
What concrete example of this idea can you find in the novel?
How does it relate to Chapter 9?
What concrete example of this idea can you find in the novel?
lundi 9 décembre 2013
Quote of the Day - Chapter 9
When a person starts on the discovery of the absolute by the light of reason only, and without any assistance of sense, and perseveres until by pure intelligence he arrives at the perception of the absolute good, he at last finds himself at the end of the intellectual world, as in the case of sight at the end of the visible...
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To me, this quote means that when a person comes to understanding completely the meaning of life, there's a point where this world no longer suits him and he passes on to something above the intellectual world. For Socrates, the meaning to life is goodness (as he says in the quote). He thinks that the world turns around good, since without it there wouldn't be any bad. This makes me think of many religious beliefs like the moksha in hinduism, the nirvana from buddhism and even the illumination in christianity. These beliefs all have in common the fact that the person attains a greater knowledge and understanding of life which leads them to various fates depending on the religion. This quote relates to the recent chapters in The lord of the flies because we see Simon acquiring this kind of knowledge. At the end of chapter 8 (p.158-159), Simon is talking to the Lord of the flies. Yet it is obvious that the pig's head can't actually talk so it is in fact Simon who is realizing everything on his own in a vision. "You knew, didn't you? I'm part of you?" (p.158) Here Simon sees that savagery is a part of every human. "I'm warning you. I'm going to get waxy.(...) So don't try it on, my poor misguided boy, or else (...) we (the boys + savagery) shall do you" (p.158-195). Then Simon realizes that he's alone and that if he keeps his perseverance and pureness, savagery will eliminate him. This somewhat foreshadows to the events in chapter 9 when the boys, overcome by savagery, kill Simon thinking he's the beast. This relates to Socrates quote because we can see that Simon has gained so much knowledge that he no longer fits in this world. We then see him portrayed in the end of chapter 9 (p.170) as being his own, pure and human self whereas the other boys are said to be creatures, as if that they've been overcome so much by savagery that they have become their own beasts.
RépondreEffacerI liked your analysis of what Socrates was attempting to say. I just wanted to add this quote: (p. 162) “As Simon thought this, he turned to the poor broken thing that sat stinking by his side. The beast was harmless and horrible; (...)” I think that there is something important to how the beast is characterized as 'harmless' yet 'horrible'. Both these concepts are conflicting but true nonetheless. It was infact the idea which was destroying the boys, an idea of a fear which could not actually harm them.
EffacerI'm sorry, I posted my comment at the wrong place, so I re-write it here. Does someone know how to erase the other one?
EffacerReally well said! It seems that dying makes Simon even more true to his true self, while the other boys are becoming more and more savage creatures (beasts).
I really like your answer Alexane, its clear and i love how compare the quote to religious beliefs and also how you kind of somewhat explain the meaning of the Lord of the Flies appearance.
EffacerI like your analysis of the quote. And I agree with Sara about the 'harmless' and 'horrible' they are both very true and present. They where only afraid of the idea of the beast was horrible but being only an idea it is harmless.
EffacerI found it interesting how you compared Socrates' quote to the various religious ideas. It's true that these religious groups of people think that their knowledge of life is enhanced by knowing these things, and I think that is an idea that applies itself really well in this chapter.
EffacerI agree with you and you said some points about other religions that i didn't know about and it helped me understand the quote even better. I like the way you compared it to chapter 9 and it makes a lot more sense now.
EffacerGood answer Alexane, I liked what you said about Simon obtaining superior knowledge of him being a savage. I also liked how you compared Socrates' quote with the other religious beliefs it really made me see a connection between them and also with the book.
EffacerI agree with your answer and your reference to different religion belief. Simon was trying bringing the good news to the survivors but failed. The survivor killed their only hope against the beast as he was to reveal the truth behind it all; he never got the chance to past the news to someone else.
EffacerWell... that was ... in a sense, illuminating! I think you covered enough to ruin Mme's discussion about the Lord of the Flies of tomorow. I really liked you interpretation of the whole situation. I was trying to find the symbolism in this chapter and the last, yet I didn't really find anything. This helped! Thanks!
EffacerWell said, I really like how you integrated the religions in your answer. I agree that Simon reaches the pinnacle of his knowledge towards himself as he approaches his death.
EffacerI like how you touched on religion regarding the quotation and the chapter, it was quite rellevant and illuminating.
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RépondreEffacerI think this quote by Socrates demonstrates the inner journey for knowledge in everyone, how curiosity can always bring us further... until we don't have any questions left. One without questions would be at the "end of the intellectual world", he would have all the knowledge he needs and his existence would seem useless. This can be seen in chapter 9 as Simon finally understands what the Beast is. Simon was taunted by the Lord of the Flies (apparently a literal translation for Beelzebub, a deity known as the Devil in Catholic demonology) and gets him to realize how they are the Beasts, how the state of chaos they were all put in by being lost on an abandoned island has rendered them all savage. Simon understands that if he doesn't turn savage, the other boys will and will surely kill him. He is constantly thinking about the possibly of the "Beast" being human (for example, in chapter 5, "'We could be sort of... ' Simon became inarticulate in his efforts to express mankind's essential illness." (p.96)) . The reader knows that Simon thinks that the other boys will be his downfall and the Lord of the Flies, the most evil Beast of them all, an innocent sow killed for pleasure, shows Simon how there really is no hope for them. I think that Simon did not only die because he had nothing left to learn, but because he learned that all the boys are prone to savagery, and so is he. After seeing that the Beast is a fallen parachuter, he still wants to inform the others, even though he knows they are all savage, it seems improbable he did not see his impending death. Even in chapter 7, he tells Ralph "All the same. You'll get back all right. I think so, anyway." (p.121) hinting that he thinks Ralph will be all right... and he probably won't be. He has arrived at the end of the intellectual world, when he realizes just how bad humanity can be and that he will die because of it.
RépondreEffacerIncredibly said Marc. I like how you linked this quote to a previous chapter, I hadn't saw it that way when I initially read it. I would associate it with Simon's realization that the beast was merely a man and a parachute that was misinterpreted by their fear. However, when he attempts to share his 'enlightenment' he is attacked by his friends who had already succumbed to their savagery.
EffacerReally true. It's sad for Simon because he was one of the kindest and cleverest boy, but died, killed by the others when he was simply trying to reassure them on the Beast' true identity. It's quite unfair that Simon died so quickly while some other more evil and less working characters, such as Roger, continued to live happily.
EffacerWow! I don't think I could disagree with because of the way you argued it. It's very unfortunate the way SImon died trying to prove the beast's identity.
EffacerI really liked the end of your argument about when Simon reassured Ralph that he would be all right in the end, but that he, Simon, wouldn't be. I didn't catch on about him realizing that humanity would be his downfall but now I see that that is really evident.
EffacerThe part where you said Simon understands that if he doesn't turn savage, the other boys will and will surely kill him, is very true and made me realize how big of a symbol that the Lord of the Flies is. Obviously it isn't the Lord of the Flies talking to him it's his mind realizing what's really happening on the island and that every single one of the boys is the beast and they could be unleashed at any second.
EffacerReally well said Marc, I really liked your observations on Simon. The examples of when he says Ralph is not going to die but he will and that the beast may be them instead really made me think of why Simon is now dead. However does this mean that Simon is the smartest boy in the group even more than Piggy?
EffacerI really like the arguments you used Marc. I agree with you that Simon’s death was inevitable, as you clearly demonstrated; it had been foreshadowed for some time now. I think that Simon’s death also demonstrate how society has a problem accepting those who are different. Simon was very different from the rest of the group and was consequently the first to die.
EffacerI agree with Leslie! It is very unfortunate the way Simon died. It was quite a thing he wanted to say, and without this information, the colony is, to put it lightly, doomed. I come to love this chapter as you and Alexane made me discover so much about it. There is so much to be seen in the chapter... it baffles me.
EffacerWell said Marc, thank you for enlightening me about the literal translation for the Lord of the Flies. This information will help me understand more the on going themes and motifs of the book going forward.
EffacerGreat answer marc! you really made the relation between the quote and the chapter clearer. I also likeyour last argument where Simon reassures Ralph of everything, yet simon dies.
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